Newsvine: Get Smarter Here?

News Type: Event — Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:26 AM EDT

history, islam, newsvine, shiites, sunnis, salafism, muslim-views-of-the-west

One of Newsvine's central missions is to provide a forum where informed members can exchange views on issues of importance both here in the US and worldwide. To that end it offers us all the opportunity to either seed articles of interest from news publications or write our own stuff. All that said, I have a small beef to make.

This past weekend I seeded a link to the Washington Post's Outlook section entitled One Islam, Many Circles containing a group of articles written by various Muslim scholars and writers that offered a valuable overview both of the many strains of Islam but also a perspective on how Muslims view the West. I found it very enlightening and believed other readers would as well.

Well, lo and behold, it got four votes and no comments. Now I'm not grousing here as I view my presence on NV as an avocation and not a vocation. But goodness gracious wouldn't one think something like this would have drawn a little interest? Instead, the link was subsumed within a tidal wave of ideologically tilted seeds that while adding much heat didn't contain much light. My friend BlaiseP's excellent article Iraq Commentary and An Exit Strategy fared slightly better with some 19 votes and 49 comments but nowhere near such piffling nonsense as that drawn by endless musings on the DC Madam and other such piffle.

Given what I've seen of the historical knowledge exhibited by many NV members I simply have to question whether the Vine is succeeding in the mission to make us all smarter and that's a shame.

24 Votes
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Bill Harrison's Column, All of Newsvine
Groups: Map the Internet, Media Watch, Newsvine Community, rightwingers, Utopia
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What's this?

Who's leading the conversation?

This visualization below allows you to see the impact that each user has on the current conversation. The top row contains the group of users who have had the most impact, the 2nd row the group of users who have had the 2nd most impact (et cetera). Users with similar impact are grouped together, and the average score of the group is shown to the left of the group. The author of the article is also shown on the left, in their corresponding group. Each user's score is based on the number of comments the user has made plus the number of votes their comments have received. The scores are calculated relative one another, so while their absolute value is not particularly important, their relative difference does indicate a larger difference in impact on the conversation.

5.8

{"commentId":891125,"authorDomain":"backroadsbubba"}

backroads

Perhaps interest leans more toward the purient rather than the politic.

{"commentId":891125,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"backroadsbubba"}

1 vote

#1 - Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:49 PM EDT

{"commentId":891160,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Bill Harrison

Roads, I've found that this site is mainly populated by the young and the poorly educated with a few notable exceptions.

{"commentId":891160,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

3 votes

#1.1 - Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:59 PM EDT

{"commentId":891245,"authorDomain":"backroadsbubba"}

backroads

Seems so, along with some truly "irritable" types. Some appear to subscribe to doom 'n gloom domestic prognostications rather than opting to stand back and look at the international scene from all sides.

{"commentId":891245,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"backroadsbubba"}

2 votes

#1.2 - Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:20 PM EDT

{"commentId":891269,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Bill Harrison

Heh. Still, anything would be an improvement over the Corky/Anthony/Perv show on the old Times forum. I check into that Guardian forum from time to time and it's like Groundhog Day or something.

{"commentId":891269,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

2 votes

#1.3 - Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:27 PM EDT

{"commentId":892235,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

Dennis P. McCann

That's not really it at all.

It may seem that good things are ignored, or that it's all luck, but it's really exposure that matters. Let me explain.

The key is to get people on your friends lists, and get people to watchlist you. If you do that, whatever you seed/write will show up on many comment trackers. If you don't, you can produce a diamond, but no one will know.

Comments help. Comments that people vote for, because they're on-topic, insightful, informative, etc. Comments that are likely to get collapsed work against you. No one wants to read the the "angry guy."

It takes time and effort. Killfile didn't start out where he is. He wrote great stuff, for a long time, before anyone really noticed. Now, if he seeds something it's likely to show up on 300+ comment trackers. he's earned that.

Groups help, if you put it in the proper group. For example, that seed you mentioned above, if clipped or published to Middle East Vine, or Worldviews, would have generated interest.

I would have read that seed, but I didn't know it existed. Why not? Simple. Your comments are grey to me, Bill.

Allow me to demonstrate. I'm going to go read that seed, leave a comment, and clip it to appropriate groups. mark the timestamp on this comment, and check your seed in 24 hours. Perhaps sooner.

{"commentId":892235,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

9 votes

#1.4 - Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:16 PM EDT

{"commentId":892239,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

Dennis P. McCann

Oh, your link doesn't go to the seed, it goes to the article itself. Can you give me the link to the original seed?

{"commentId":892239,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

7 votes

#1.5 - Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:19 PM EDT

{"commentId":893245,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Bill Harrison

Thanks for the tips, Dennis. I'm still figuring out all of the various highways and byways of the Vine. Here's the original seed.

{"commentId":893245,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

4 votes

#1.6 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:56 AM EDT

{"commentId":893253,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

Dennis P. McCann

I left a comment and clipped it to three groups.

Start your clock, and behold the power of the comment tracker.

{"commentId":893253,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

2 votes

#1.7 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:04 AM EDT

{"commentId":910665,"authorDomain":"hamid"}

hamid.nyc

Bill,
Great article, I've only written two, and emerged with the same feeling. All the time and effort, and for what? I'm going to read your article on Islam, I'm always interested with articles of this type. It's the first pagers that get noticed, and usually the left wing vs. right wing or religious controversial stuff that evokes so much emotion around here.

I actually emailed Newsvine staff and asked if there were a way to scan "second page", "third page" of newsvine. They replied with the suggestion that I use NewsViz, the colored bar doohickey on the front page. I guess we could search by tags also, but I really would like to catch the diamonds that Dennis referred to without having to put a hundred members on my watchlist, the comment tracker would be in the thousands...

{"commentId":910665,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"hamid"}

3 votes

#1.8 - Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:37 PM EDT

{"commentId":910744,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Bill Harrison

Thanks, Hamid. NV could do a lot more with less of the juvenile "Top of the Vine" and leaderboard crap. There's a lot of good stuff that goes unnoticed.

{"commentId":910744,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

3 votes

#1.9 - Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:58 PM EDT

{"commentId":892173,"authorDomain":"nikitab"}

NikitaB

Bill, seeding is also luck of the draw the way NV has been built. From observation, NV is not very good at organizing information, which, to be fair, is a relatively complex task. After all, how do you allow information to self-organize in a correct manner without introducing systemic bias?

From what I understand, NV has taken an old-school one-page-for-all model, which is, essentially, creating a system where information quickly turns into stale air unless it is picked up by a current and carried using some algorithms that I don't think have been disclosed. Seeds seem to have very little weight. Stories have a bit more. But it is stories that draw attention within the first X amount of time that get on top and stay. It's a bit like a rollercoaster - you have to end up on the right tracks to be taken for a ride.

There are numerous solutions to this problem. One is ditching the one-view-to-rule-them-all approach and distributing analysis accross the board. I am sure they are doing this to some extent, but, for now, it's probably locale based... Another solution is to increase rotation of articles on the front page to increase chances of exposure.

But NV seems to have taken another appoach - the moment is gained if you are in the system for a while and you participate. Then you slowly float up to the top. The problem with this approach is evident: a newcomer can't really contribute. He has to make friends and integrate...

{"commentId":892173,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"nikitab"}

4 votes

#2 - Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:46 PM EDT

{"commentId":892642,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}

spiffie

Of course, a bias towards encouraging users to participate and integrate into the community isn't necessarily a bad thing.

{"commentId":892642,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"spiffie"}

5 votes

#2.1 - Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:48 PM EDT

{"commentId":894126,"authorDomain":"nikitab"}

NikitaB

Yeah, but the problem is that many users will get discouraged + a lot of good information will be lost. Right now the situation is such that if some newbie seeds something and I feel strongly about out, I would get more exposure to this information by reseeding it rather than participating on their seed. This means that older users can prevent entry of new users in a way.

{"commentId":894126,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"nikitab"}

1 vote

#2.2 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:58 PM EDT

{"commentId":894196,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Bill Harrison

I also view that as a significant problem.

{"commentId":894196,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

1 vote

#2.3 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:20 PM EDT

{"commentId":894208,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

Dennis P. McCann

I've seen a few people reseed stuff to "get the seed more exposure," and I find it detestable.

Clip it to your column and leave a comment, but don't steal the seed from someone else.

{"commentId":894208,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

6 votes

#2.4 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:23 PM EDT

{"commentId":894252,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Bill Harrison

Right. I've seen some of that stuff here myself. People should know better from the red box that pops up when the same thing's been seeded before. Check your email.

{"commentId":894252,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

2 votes

#2.5 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:33 PM EDT

{"commentId":894371,"authorDomain":"nikitab"}

NikitaB

From what I understand, your clipping information doesn't significantly improve the exposure for the original seed. That is, if a top user seeds vs. a top user clips, the effect is different (which it should not be). Would be nice if NV was more open about their algorithms.

{"commentId":894371,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"nikitab"}

1 vote

#2.6 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:04 PM EDT

{"commentId":894386,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

Dennis P. McCann

Sure it does.

If i clip your seed to my column, it shows up in both columns. Anyone who has watchlisted either of us will see it.

{"commentId":894386,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

3 votes

#2.7 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:09 PM EDT

{"commentId":894483,"authorDomain":"nikitab"}

NikitaB

Dennis, this doesn't help the article get to the front page. It looks like Newsvine is bulit in a way that, if Killfile seeds something and if a newbie seeds something, if Killfile clips it, it won't end up on the front page. If Killfile seeds it, it would get more of a push... may be I am wrong.

{"commentId":894483,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"nikitab"}

#2.8 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:37 PM EDT

{"commentId":894487,"authorDomain":"nikitab"}

NikitaB

Bill,

I wrote an article about How to get noticed on Newsvine." I hope you like it. It's about some more pro-active strategies to get exposure.

{"commentId":894487,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"nikitab"}

1 vote

#2.9 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:38 PM EDT

{"commentId":894524,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

Dennis P. McCann

No, Nikita.

If i clip your seed to my column, it's as if we both seeded it, though the comments and votes will still go to the original seeder - you.

If you want to help a seed get exposure, leave a comment that will put it on comment trackers. Clip it to your column to put it on watchlists. Hell, email a few people and direct them to it.

But reseeding is simply stealing someone else's seed, no matter who does it.

{"commentId":894524,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

1 vote

#2.10 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:46 PM EDT

{"commentId":894562,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

Dennis P. McCann

Check your email.

Bill, was this directed at me? If so, I never got your email.

{"commentId":894562,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

2 votes

#2.11 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:52 PM EDT

{"commentId":894639,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Bill Harrison

Uh. I sent it to you on the Vine contact author thingy. Anyhoo here's the link to the larger WaPo series On faith.

{"commentId":894639,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

1 vote

#2.12 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:07 PM EDT

{"commentId":894669,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

Dennis P. McCann

Yeah, I got it now. Just came through.

Thanks.

{"commentId":894669,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

2 votes

#2.13 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:16 PM EDT

{"commentId":895002,"authorDomain":"nikitab"}

NikitaB

Dennis, this is why you are an artist and I a web developer. I don't see evidence that clipping = seeding with respect to weight of the article within the system. If you are right, this should be advertised by Newsvine to encourage clipping.

{"commentId":895002,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"nikitab"}

1 vote

#2.14 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:42 PM EDT

{"commentId":892527,"authorDomain":"jhauser5"}

Darlene1005

Roads, I've found that this site is mainly populated by the young and the poorly educated with a few notable exceptions.

I am neither young or poorly educated. Dennis and Nikita made some really good points about Newsvine. I have seeded some things that did not get many votes either. I have also seeded some things that got many comments or votes and I really could not figure out what made that particular seed different.

I have observed that the Newsvine community is very eclectic. Some are deeply passionate about a particular cause. Others are light hearted and prefer satire type news. This is really how our world is made. We are diverse and that is OK. I have learned much about the world and people since I have become a member of the Newsvine Community. These people will help you, support you, laugh with you, and steer you in the right direction, so you can get smarter .

{"commentId":892527,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"jhauser5"}

10 votes

#3 - Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:13 PM EDT

{"commentId":893043,"authorDomain":"generaldecay"}

generaldecay

Au contraire, I would day that most of the members of NV are neither young nor under-educated (I, for one, am rather over-educated). That's rather a big leap of the imagination just because one of your seeds didn't get much attention. It's also rather offensive.

Ultimately, as with newspapers and news programmes, people read and discuss what they want to read. There's no formula, but that's part of the experience.

{"commentId":893043,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"generaldecay"}

6 votes

#4 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:21 AM EDT

{"commentId":893562,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Bill Harrison

I didn't base my comments on that as I stated in the article. It was just a general observation since I came aboard in April. Like all such fora there are very good posters, mediocre ones and some who shouldn't be allowed out in public unattended.

Thanks again to all who have helped me navigate this place and especially thanks to Dennis McCann.

{"commentId":893562,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

4 votes

#4.1 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:16 AM EDT

{"commentId":893977,"authorDomain":"nytimes-forum-refugees"}

george sDeleted

{"commentId":894270,"authorDomain":"fort"}

the_leander

The great thing about a friends list is that they often comment on things you miss and would probably enjoy, such as this, by it, I've visited two links that I thoroughly enjoyed.

Thanks!

All hail the power of the comment tracker, for it is good!

{"commentId":894270,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"fort"}

2 votes

#6 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:36 PM EDT

{"commentId":900858,"authorDomain":"Billman"}

Billman

I am relatively young (36) and have a high school education. I am also brand new to NV. I joined yesterday after I followed a search link in google on an issue that really got my blood boiling. I began browsing the site a bit and I have been mostly impressed with the level of articulation and knowledge demonstrated by both the "posters" and the "commenters" in the half-dozen seeds I've read. I look forward to becoming an integrated member of the forum.

{"commentId":900858,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"Billman"}

3 votes

#7 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:11 PM EDT

{"commentId":900873,"authorDomain":"generaldecay"}

generaldecay

And welcome you are Bill. I haven't been here very long myself but I'm enjoying it for the most part - sometimes too much - and I've certainly managed to avoid any 'thickies' yet. :)

May I ask, what was the article you found on Google which incensed you so?

{"commentId":900873,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"generaldecay"}

3 votes

#7.1 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:16 PM EDT

{"commentId":900925,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Bill Harrison

I don't recall becoming "incensed" over an article on Google. I was merely commenting that a number of very serious and timely seedings and articles seemed to get short shrift behind the triviality of the DC Madam "story".

{"commentId":900925,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

#7.2 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:28 PM EDT

{"commentId":901071,"authorDomain":"generaldecay"}

generaldecay

Yes, I meant the Bill I replied to in #7.

{"commentId":901071,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"generaldecay"}

2 votes

#7.3 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:13 PM EDT

{"commentId":900968,"authorDomain":"Billman"}

Billman

Sorry Bill, I think he meant me. The news story that got me irritated was a story about a soldier who hired someone to shoot him in the leg while home on leave so he did not have to return to Iraq. I'm still not quite sure how to post a link here but the name of the post on NV was "New website will keep track of questionable news stories."

If you check out my profile it's one of the few I've commented on...

I have to warn you though, my comment posts on the thread are a little long.

{"commentId":900968,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"Billman"}

2 votes

#8 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:39 PM EDT

{"commentId":901074,"authorDomain":"generaldecay"}

generaldecay

Thanks Bill - I haven't seen that story.

And I'm a 'she'! :)

{"commentId":901074,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"generaldecay"}

3 votes

#8.1 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:14 PM EDT

{"commentId":901081,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Bill Harrison

You can either paste in your link or use HTML tags like many of us do. Here's a website that will help you with the latter.

{"commentId":901081,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

2 votes

#8.2 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:17 PM EDT

{"commentId":901100,"authorDomain":"epiphany-sorbet"}

epiphany sorbet

Bill H

Billman is too new to be able to put links in comments. He needs vineacity or vineness. You know that that little green stick thingy.

{"commentId":901100,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"epiphany-sorbet"}

2 votes

#8.3 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:28 PM EDT

{"commentId":901108,"authorDomain":"Billman"}

Billman

Sorry about that Gen, heheh. I realized that after I posted and wandered to your profile.

Thanks for the tip Bill. I have a little experience with HTML, but I've gotten a bit rusty, and really appreciate the link.

{"commentId":901108,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"Billman"}

2 votes

#8.4 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:31 PM EDT

{"commentId":901123,"authorDomain":"generaldecay"}

generaldecay

No problems at all, Bill(man). Easy mistake and it's not the first time it's been made here! :)

{"commentId":901123,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"generaldecay"}

2 votes

#8.5 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:34 PM EDT

{"commentId":901141,"authorDomain":"backroadsbubba"}

backroads

One of us is Irish and it ain't me.

{"commentId":901141,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"backroadsbubba"}

2 votes

#8.6 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:41 PM EDT

{"commentId":901187,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Bill Harrison

Right, Epi. I forgot all about that Vineacity bidness.

{"commentId":901187,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

1 vote

#9 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:55 PM EDT

{"commentId":901275,"authorDomain":"epiphany-sorbet"}

epiphany sorbet

Bill H

So are ya done tellin' us what a bunch of uninformed morons we are?

I figure you should see some of us as eager listeners/readers. We came to get smarter and you are one of the vendors of smarts. So, since the "customer" is always right, quit pickin' on us and make us smarter . . . right now!

{"commentId":901275,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"epiphany-sorbet"}

3 votes

#9.1 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:31 PM EDT

{"commentId":901356,"authorDomain":"mscyprah"}

Ms CYPRAH

My friend BlaiseP's excellent article Iraq Commentary and An Exit Strategy fared slightly better with some 19 votes and 49 comments but nowhere near such piffling nonsense as that drawn by endless musings on the DC Madam and other such piffle.

In case you hadn't noticed, dear Bill, as a newcomer I can safely attest to the fact that NewsVine seems to thrive on 'piffle'. Look at the top stories in the past week, especially the ones around a certain lady who left in a blaze of glory :o)

I guess it boils down to that little devil, perception. What, in one individual's perception, might be just the tonic for the rest of the world, is often quite the opposite in their perception, and so they tend to exercise that opinion, and their right to choose, by voting (or withholding their vote?) as they see fit! It might not conform to what we believe should happen, what should take priority, but that is diversity for you.

NewsVine is making us all smarter, without a doubt, but not in the 'expected' ways. As individuals, we are all taking from it what suits our own agenda and objectives and leaving the rest, no matter how useful that is supposed to be to our well being or font of knowledge.

{"commentId":901356,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"mscyprah"}

1 vote

#9.2 - Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:04 PM EDT

{"commentId":902389,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Bill Harrison

Alright, alright everybody I surrender ;>0.

{"commentId":902389,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

#10 - Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:30 AM EDT

{"commentId":903367,"authorDomain":"schnoo"}

schnoo

My friend BlaiseP's excellent article Iraq Commentary and An Exit Strategy fared slightly better with some 19 votes and 49 comments but nowhere near such piffling nonsense as that drawn by endless musings on the DC Madam and other such piffle.

I'm betting that Entertainment Tonight also has bigger ratings than the Sunday morning gasbag yakfests. You need to try to find a way to work Ms. Lohan or Ms. Spears into the ME equation.

{"commentId":903367,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"schnoo"}

1 vote

#11 - Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:42 PM EDT

{"commentId":903691,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Bill Harrison

Dude, click the link supra.

{"commentId":903691,"threadId":"129287","contentId":"855004","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

#11.1 - Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:11 PM EDT

{"canLink":false,"threadId":"129287","isPrivate":false}

BILL HARRISON

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