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Is McCain Too Old To Be President? Only If You're Historically Illiterate

Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:17 AM EDT
barack-obama, history, john-mccain, nelson-mandela, churchill, 2008-us-presidential-election, golda-meir, de-gaulle, age-issue, konrad-adenauer
By Bill Harrison

Too old? I don't think so.

"Der Alte"

A photo of the young Charles de Gaulle.

Ben-Gurion referred to her, fondly, as the "only man in the government".

We will celebrate his 90th birthday in July.

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Much has been made in this year's early presidential campaign of voter concerns about John McCain's age as an alleged defect for his candidacy. These concerns are clearly indicated in polling on the matter but should they really serve as a cause for worry? History suggests they should not.

By all accounts Senator McCain's health and energy levels are excellent notwithstanding the injuries he suffered as a result of his service to our country in Vietnam and his bout with skin cancer. And, of course, his genetics would suggest that he is likely to be long-lived if his lively 96 year old mother Roberta is any indicator. But let's take a little stroll down history's memory lane of the past century for some examples of "seasoned" leaders who proved crucial to their countries at times of great change and tumult.

Most famously we have the case of Sir Winston Spencer Churchill, born in 1874, who became British prime minister in May1940 having attained the age of 65 and would lead Britain through its "darkest hour" of the Blitz and World War II which ended shortly before his 70th birthday. Although turned out of office in favor of Labor's Clement Atlee before war's end, Churchill would be returned to the prime ministership in 1951 shortly before his 75th birthday. During this second prime ministership he successfully ended the Malay rebellion that had plagued the Atlee regime as the British Empire began to unravel.

Across the English Channel we have the examples of two of the greatest political figures of the twentieth century in continental Europe in the form of Konrad Adenauer and Charles de Gaulle. Adenauer, fondly (or not so fondly depending on one's political perspective) referred to as "Der Alte", became West Germany's first postwar chancellor at the age of 73 and served in that capacity until leaving office at the age of 87. During this crucial period of German history Adenauer, in concert with De Gaulle, sponsored the German-French rapprochement that has continued to this day along with sponsoring the precursors of what was to become the EU and Germany's entrance into NATO.

De Gaulle, of course, was a mere younster of 50 when he became head of the Free French forces following the fall of France in the spring of 1940 and the establishment of the collaborationist Vichy regime by the Nazis. Following the end of World War II and playing a brief role in the provisional French government that followed, de Gaulle retired from politics before being summoned to power and forming the Fifth French Republic in 1958 at the age of 68. During this time of crisis for France over independence for the former departement of Algeria, de Gaulle forever marked his greatness by standing up to the revanchist forces who opposed Algerian independence and such opposition was marked by no small threats upon his own life. He remained in power until 1969 and under his leadership France regained some of its former glory by setting forth something of an independent stance between East and West while at the same time standing foursquare behind the forces of liberal democracy against the threat of Soviet communism. If ever a political leader were named appropriately it would be de Gaulle.

Moving further along the timeline of the twentieth century we come to the figure of Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir who took office shortly before her 71st birthday on March 17, 1969. Known as the "Iron Lady" of Israeli politics, before that sobriquet was applied to her British counterpart Margaret Thatcher, Mrs. Meir's term of office was marked by her singlemindedness in hunting down and eliminating the Palestinian perpetrators of the massacre of Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics in 1972 and by her stalwart leadership during the Yom Kippur War of 1973 and the acceptance of a "two state" solution to the Palestinian question whose framework, no matter how tenuous, continues to this day. But it was her leadership before and during the Yom Kippur War which will mark her place in Israeli history. Against the advice of such firebrands as General David Elazar who urged a preemptive strike on massing Syrian forces on the Golan Heights, Meir resisted (wisely) along with Moshe Dayan knowing that Israel might need outside assistance if the Arabs attacked and that a preemptive strike no matter how warranted might jeopardize that support. As we all know, Israel prevailed in that war following the "surprise" attack by the armies of Egypt and Syria and the smashing of Egyptian forces finally resulted in what would later become the Israeli-Egyptian Peace Treaty signed during the Carter administration which while hardly guaranteeing peace for the region has prevented another Arab-Israeli war during the past thirty years.

Our tour here ends with a man whose 90th birthday we will celebrate next month, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela of South Africa. Mr. Mandela, long held prisoner under South Africa's apartheid regime, became president of that nation shortly before attaining his 76th birthday and who, with his deputy president the Afrikaaner F.W. de Klerk, ushered in a new era in the history of that rich and beautiful nation which stands today in stark contrast to the horror of its neighbor Zimbabwe under the ruthless oppression of Robert Mugabe. Under Mandela's leadership South Africa started the process of racial reconciliation that continues to the present and the reintegration of that country into the international community.

In this silly season of presidential politics before the real game begins in late August, there's little sillier than focusing on a candidate's age.

Note: All images courtesy of Wikipedia

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  • Public Discussion (245)
Better Careful

Those were exceptional people. John McCain is not. He borders on being a doddering old man. Too, his policies and politics are all wrong for where we are as a nation. We need to repair the damage done by Bush and the Republican Party, rather than continue on the same course. A bumbling old man leading the way down the right-wing path is about as bad as it gets.

  • 12 votes
#1 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:07 AM EDT
Jay Keggerlord

PD, can you elaborate on:

A. How Senator McCain borders on being a doddering old man?
B. How his politics are all wrong for where we are as a nation?
C. How or why Senator McCain won't repair the damage done by Bush or how Senator Obama would be better suited to do this?
D. What evidence you have that Senator McCain's presidency will mean four more years of a Bush White House"? (yes, I realize you didn't explicitly call it this, but there is an implication of this common mantra amongst entrenched Democrats)

  • 10 votes
#1.1 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:26 AM EDT
ShaunV

Jay:

Good questions.

I just seeded a Washington post article in which a focus group finds that the average person votes using emotions rather than factual analyses.

Young and new seems trendy even though most agreed they would want McCain to be around as a neighbor of if they were lost in the woods.

Apparently Obama is getting a lot of support for being "young and new".

Here is a quote from the seed regarding the focus group. I won't post a link because I don't want to hijack Bill's thread.

In an effort to plumb their emotional reactions to both men, Hart fired a series of off-the-wall questions at the group: Imagine you are lost in a forest. Would you want Obama or McCain to help get you out? What kind of neighbor would McCain or Obama be? With which man would you choose to share an hour-long commute to work? Whom would you select to carry the American flag for the U.S. athletes marching in the opening ceremony of the Olympics?

Obama had fewer supporters than McCain on all of these questions, though only four of 12 said they leaned toward voting for McCain.

  • 9 votes
#1.2 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:47 AM EDT
Mars313

A:

John McCain has a history of being inappropriate with reporters, aside from last week's "Kerry Question" incident. When a New Hampshire high-school student asked McCain if he thought he was too old to run for president, Mac fired back "Thanks for the question, you little jerk."

According to Dr. Robin Silver, when she met with McCain in 1992 to discuss the endangered Mount Graham red squirrel, Mac "slammed his fists on his desk, scattering papers across the room," "jumped up and down, screaming obscenities at us for at least 10 minutes," and "shook his fists as if he was going to slug us."

It is well known that in 2000, Mac Attack refused to apologize for saying "I hate the gooks," referring to his wartime captors. It is also well know that while only some Crazy Hotheads are racist, almost all Grumpy Old Men refer to minorities as "queers", "coloreds", or "Heeb Bagelsteins."

He has lost touch with reality, due to his age, and his lack of experience in civilian life.

B: His policies won't work any better under his administration than they did under Bush's.

C: McCain's policies are almost identical to Bush's, so how could he fix Dubya's mistakes?

D:

CQ tries to determine what the president personally, as distinct from other administration officials, does and does not want in the way of legislative action. This is done by analyzing his messages to Congress, news conference remarks and other public statements and documents.

So, these studies only track votes when the President has an explicit, stated opinion on a bill. According to CQ, Senator John McCain has voted with President Bush 100% of the time in 2008 and 95% of the time in 2007

  • 10 votes
#1.3 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:56 AM EDT
Brian Ford

Apparently Obama is getting a lot of support for being "young and new".

So, what's wrong with that? For the last who knows how long, "old and white" has been trendy. If you really want to argue that trends are a bad thing, you can't really go wrong by criticizing a trend which has been popular for decades.

Also, a nitpick: It can't be trendy if there's not really a trend. Young and New, however popular it may seem, hasn't won an election for some time now, when it comes to the POTUS. Perhaps if we have a category for "relatively" young and new, but even then...

And, finally, simply on the basis of breathing new life into Presidential policy, I have no problem admitting that someone closer to my generation than my grandparent's generation comes with a certain built-in appeal. I know which generation tends to be more sympathetic and realistic when it comes to issues that I find to be of importance (sexual education, gay rights, terrorism) and feel that basing a vote on that isn't the worst thing in the world, and I also don't think it boils down to "McCain is old." I think it boils down to: "McCain has the values I would expect in a person of his age, and because of that, I cannot give him my vote."

It's simply another way of saying that I believe in and relate to Obama's stance on most major policy issues, and McCain -- not so much.

  • 7 votes
#1.4 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:22 AM EDT
Mars313

Brian, these older folks, who are scared that their generation are becoming the new elderly, hate change. So, in their minds, if we've had old, white presidents for 200+ years, then we should NEVER change that, because it works so well (look how productive life was back in the early 1800s, and white males barely had to lift a finger!). This is what happens when one generation is forced to pass the torch to the next generation.

They love to pretend that younger people are clueless to the way the world works, or that their "experience" is needed by the Nation in order for it to function, but the truth is this: they are becoming a burden to the younger generations.

Right now I pay Social Security (just like most of you Americans do) so that retirees can receive it. I am all for that, I strongly believe in SS. The problem is that I am paying it for folks (probably like the viner who seeded this) yet I will, more than likely, not receive it myself. The past generations made sure that SS was around for them, but conveniently spent the SS of my generation on a war that fought by, guess who, my generation, and paid for by, that's right, my generation.

  • 6 votes
#1.5 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:30 AM EDT
ShaunV

So, what's wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing, Brian.

My point is only the premise of the Washington post article I mentioned. That premise being that the average person votes with their heart rather than their head.

I am not making a judgment about the behavior. I only posted the comment so others can draw their own conclusion.

From a psychological and marketing perspective, I believe this heart over mind contention is rather old news.

Young and New, however popular it may seem, hasn't won an election for some time now,

Agreed, Brian. Still, it's somewhat responsible for the rock concert atmosphere at Obama rallies, IMO. If Obama were an older man, less attractive, and not a skilled orator then, IMO, he would not be as popular. If both candidates were similar in age and appearance, IMO, the issues would be more of a deciding factor rather than the illusion of resonance.

I think it boils down to: "McCain has the values I would expect in a person of his age, and because of that, I cannot give him my vote."

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

It's simply another way of saying that I believe in and relate to Obama's stance on most major policy issues, and McCain -- not so much.

From my perspective, I don't have to agree with every stance a candidate takes. For me, it's all about the larger picture and what is good for the country in general rather than for me personally.

I think if we take care of the country as a whole, rather than focusing on special interest groups than the rest will take care of itself.

Presidential policy, I have no problem admitting that someone closer to my generation than my grandparent's generation comes with a certain built-in appeal.

I think that is in part the premise of today's Washington Post article about the focus group results.

I agree, that many people do feel this way.

IMO, there is no one perfect candidate....ever. In this case both have shortcomings, as is to be expected in any election, IMO.

Lastly, its important to mention that not all the people supporting Obama in the focus group were young.

  • 7 votes
#1.6 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:43 AM EDT
Brian Ford

That premise being that the average person votes with their heart rather than their head.

Except, I'm arguing against that. I think people are accusing people like me of voting with my heart, when, really, I see age as something that is pushing him (or compelling him) to have policy stances that my head tells me are fundamentally wrong.

So, it's not that I have an issue with old people, it's that McCain's age is putting him out of touch with the things that I find to be vitally important in our next President. Those are the things that I think are going to be best for our country, and I think that someone with a decades old mindset will be bad for America. I'm not talking about a mindset regarding "politics as usual" (I don't really care about all that, much) but a mindset regarding important policy issues.

I guess if that somehow equals voting with my heart, I'm not sure I understand what sort of criteria people are supposed to utilize when choosing a candidate?

From my perspective, I don't have to agree with every stance a candidate takes.

Me either, and I doubt many people feel that way. I was actually ecstatic when I saw Obama's position on the Death Penalty ruling for Child Rapists, because it's something I can point to when people accuse me of agreeing with all of his opinions. As for his other opinions, I simply agree with more of them, or the spirt of more of them, than I do with those of McCain.

  • 9 votes
#1.7 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:25 PM EDT
JoulesBeef

every one of yoru examples has had previous executive experience.. it s a bit late in life to learn a new skill set as mccain shows with his refusal to join the computer revolution
mccain has not
also you state the age of his mother.. living to 96 doesn't mean you will aerive at that age well.
he is already havign many senor moments. and was tortured for years.. and has health issues.
still gae isnt everythign but it is somethignt o pay attention to and to concider.. just like obamas youth is something to concider. it is very true we have no maximum limit to age of president. But do we want someone who generation has pretty much pasted.
we want to change direction to the great ship US.. not continue allong paths that got us here in the first place.

  • 5 votes
#1.8 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:07 PM EDT
Jay Butler

many senor moments

"Un burrito más, por favor. Gracias, señor."

  • 5 votes
#1.9 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:17 PM EDT
Nathan Johnson

Brian -

I see age as something that is pushing him (or compelling him) to have policy stances that my head tells me are fundamentally wrong.

This is unbelievable bigotry, and to me, is total hipocrisy, when you consider that if I said that Obama's race or Hillary's gender would compell them to have positions that are "fundamentally wrong", that I would (rightly so) be labelled as a flaming racist or sexist.

  • 8 votes
#1.10 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:18 PM EDT
ShaunV

I think it boils down to: "McCain has the values I would expect in a person of his age, and because of that, I cannot give him my vote."

Brian:

That remark sounds ageist. Ageism is typically an emotional reaction rather than an intellectual one.

Numerous studies show that in a normal older person, cognitive skills increase as one ages.

I don't agree that McCain has values one would expect of someone his age. I know scads of older folk, 50s to 70s, who are wild about Obama.

from my perspective, McCAin has the values of someone who is realistic and pragmatic, no matter his age. Obama on the other hand appears to be tilting at windmills.

One needs to choose their battles. Obama is focusing on the wrong things at the wrong time, IMO.

Obama is feeding on the unhappiness and frustration people feel regarding the economy. They seem to blame the economy on Bush and the war effort.

In reality, the entire world is experiencing a poor economy. Not just the US. The president can not control the world.

Switching to a party with a drastically different view may seem like the best road to take, but IMO, it is the worst.

Flip flopping between parties everytime something does not work out as expected leaves a tangled trailed of half finished projects or rashly changed policies that haunts us for years afterward. It sets up and endless cycle of going nowhere fast. Sometimes things get worse before they get better. Maybe we need to finish what we started to see the true reality.

As for his other opinions, I simply agree with more of them, or the spirt of more of them, than I do with those of McCain.

That's okay, Brian. And that is what elections are about......Choice.

  • 10 votes
#1.11 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:45 PM EDT
lisaed

Apparently Obama is getting a lot of support for being "young and new".

Shaun 1.2---yes Obama is young and new while McCain is old and experienced.....that is exactly what this election has come down to.....it's the American Idol/Rock Star reality show version of electing a president and I think it stinks. We'll see who gets voted off come November.

  • 9 votes
#1.12 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:51 PM EDT
Mars313

Lisa, be honest, we already know who has got this one wrapped up. McCain doesn't stand a chance, and Obama WILL be the next president. This isn't my opinion, it's my prediction based on what I've seen.

Feel free to mark my words.

  • 6 votes
#1.13 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:01 PM EDT
Brian Ford

Numerous studies show that in a normal older person, cognitive skills increase as one ages.

That's fine. Where did I mention his cognitive skills? He may well be a pretty smart guy, for all I know.

I don't agree that McCain has values one would expect of someone his age.

Look, let's not get wild here with the shouts of ageism and bigotry. That goes for the other guy with the similar refrain, as well. "You know some old people who..." is very well and good, but the fact of the matter is, McCain was raised in an era when MANY of the things that I am against were popular opinion, and when it comes to many of those issues, gay marriage, his stance on abortion, etc. -- they seem to reflect an upbringing from that era. His policy is dictated by what I see as outdated values, indicative of his age. If I didn't see those values in his policies, his age wouldn't concern me in the slightest.

So, is it possible (or likely) that there are young people who buy into those values, or older people who don't? Of course! But, let's look at the bigger picture, here.

For Example:

Study Finds Age Divide on Gay Marriage

So, look. If you want to claim that there are a lot of Black Voters who have specific issues that they would like to see addressed, and if you want to posit that many of those black voters believe that Obama, with a shared ethnicity, is more likely to share those concerns, have at it. I promise I won't call you racist, because unless he proves otherwise, it seems like a fair assumption to make.

However, if you say that they're voting for Obama "because he's black" -- I'll tell you I think you're wrong. If Obama were on the record as being against every important issue to Voting Black Americans, I suggest that Black America wouldn't turn out to vote for Obama. As it stands, he hasn't done so, and therefore I find it acceptable for Black Voters to vote for him, based on the reasons I outlined, without saying it's "because he's black".

So, again:

1) I never made claims about anyone other than McCain, so don't assert that I did.
2) I simply believe that McCain's age dates him to an era, and that he never outgrew values from that era that I find to be fundamentally wrong.

  • 6 votes
#1.14 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:07 PM EDT
lisaed

Mars---I completely agree that this Presidential Election is the democratic party's to lose---that said we've seen dems grasp defeat from the jaws of victory before. One should never count their chickens......that said if things heat up vis a vis Iran, Israel, Pakistan/Afghanistan I don't think that helps Obama.....sometimes age is not the bad thing we're somehow trying to make it in this election cycle.

  • 8 votes
#1.15 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:08 PM EDT
Mars313

Lisa, you are right, no doubt. My prediction is under the assumption that we won't have a false-flag attack or terrorist attack before November. I am remaining optimistic on that front (which is rare).

I would not put it past the Dems to fumble this at the goal line, and I actually wish that both parties would do just that so we can get a REAL President instead of either of these corporate puppets.

  • 2 votes
#1.16 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:11 PM EDT
ShaunV

...it's the American Idol/Rock Star reality show version of electing a president and I think it stinks. We'll see who gets voted off come November.

Yes. Good analogy...."the reality show version."

We'll see who gets voted off come November.

National polls show the two running neck in neck, right now.

IMO, McCain's brand of supporter is likely more low key and preoccupied with their lives. Hence we don't see the massive turn outs at McCain rallies and they don't express their point of view as loudly and persistently. They simply show up and vote.l

  • 8 votes
#1.17 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:12 PM EDT
Mars313

Hence we don't see the massive turn outs at McCain rallies and they don't express their point of view as loudly and persistently. They simply show up and vote.

Or they just simply aren't there in large numbers. Don't trust the polls.

  • 2 votes
#1.18 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:22 PM EDT
Nathan Johnson

McCain's brand of supporter is likely more low key and preoccupied with their lives.

Indeed. I am a McCain supporter, but I don't think that whoever is President will fix all my problems. I take personal responsibility, make my own way in life, and hope that for the most part, the government stays out of my way.

  • 6 votes
#1.19 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:36 PM EDT
lisaed

They simply show up and vote.

Shaun - this is a very good point. So much is being made of the enthusiasm gap (which is a valid concern) but at the end of the day there are a lot of folks out there who have not yet even tuned into this election....just because one is not all worked up to a fevered pitch for their candidate doesn't mean the vote they ultimately cast in November counts any less.

  • 9 votes
#1.20 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:44 PM EDT
Adam Hobson

Also, a nitpick: It can't be trendy if there's not really a trend. Young and New, however popular it may seem, hasn't won an election for some time now, when it comes to the POTUS. Perhaps if we have a category for "relatively" young and new, but even then...

Obama is 46 now, the exact same age that Bill Clinton was in 1992. So new and young was the trend in '92, and young was again the trend in '96 when it was again Clinton vs. the 73 year old Bob Dole. Bush, Gore and Kerry are all within 4 years of each other, so age never became an issue at all in the 2000 or 2004 elections.

So, since 1992, when age was significant difference between the candidates, the electorate chose the younger candidate.

I'm not sure if I have a point with all of this.

  • 5 votes
#1.21 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:50 PM EDT
Bill Harrison

Shaun

Speaking of the "rock star"/American Idol factor, do we really need to know what kind of music the candidates prefer or what's on their Ipods? I mean, who gives a crap. I remember when Yuri Andropov was selected to succeed Leonid Brezhnev and some Western commentators were falling all over themselves because he liked good Scotch and jazz glossing over his single biggest reason for being selected -- he was a KGB goon who knew where all the bodies were buried.
The transferrence of the personal onto the political is, imho, very dangerous.

  • 12 votes
#1.22 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:53 PM EDT
ShaunV

I'm not sure if I have a point with all of this.

Interesting information, nonetheless, Adam.

Lisaed, Nathan and Bill:

Good points, all 'round.

The transferrence of the personal onto the political is, imho, very dangerous.

Yes. It spurs people to vote for a candidate because they like him rather than because he is qualified.

  • 6 votes
#1.23 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:56 PM EDT
Samantha Gluck

do we really need to know what kind of music the candidates prefer or what's on their Ipods?

I totally agree. I wouldn't want people to judge me based on some of the select pieces on my ipod. Ahem...

That is his personal life. I think all the women screaming as if they were watching a hot superstar perform must have been high, paid, planted or all of the above. Remember that whole news story about the fainting, panty throwing, and screaming?

  • 7 votes
#1.24 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:05 PM EDT
ShaunV

must have been high, paid, planted or all of the above

Samantha:

There are ads being placed in Newspapers all over the US offering to pay people to campaign for Obama.

Here's one in the News Observer:

Campaign Jobs

Elect Barack Obama
Work for Grassroots Campaigns Inc. on behalf of the National Democratic Party, to help elect Senator Obama and Democrats everywhere. $4500- $7500 over the summer.

Grassroots Campaigns is a Boston-based nonprofit that does door-to-door canvassing and fundraising for liberal candidates and causes.

http://projects.newsobserver.com/under_the_dome/summer_jobs_for_obama_campaign

I can't find any paying campaign jobs for McCain. It's all volunteer requests, so far.

  • 4 votes
#1.25 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:30 PM EDT
Bill Harrison

Indeed. This all started when Bill Clinton went on the Arsenio Hall Show with his tenor sax and appeared on MTV. It's been downhill ever since.

  • 8 votes
#1.26 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:31 PM EDT
Samantha Gluck

Bill that memory just made me throw up in my mouth a little bit. Thanks a lot friend...

  • 4 votes
#1.27 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:34 PM EDT
Bill Harrison

My apologies my dear. I wonder how long it will be before the Smoke Nazis start hammering Obama on his Marlboro Red thing. Jake Tapper, a reliable snake in all weathers, was reporting back a few months that he was still hotboxing the butts. Considering that smoking is now held in lower regard by many than pedophilia this cannot be good news for the Obama campaign.

  • 8 votes
#1.28 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:07 PM EDT
lisaed

And don't forget----since the Unity bit we have a new reason to be all excited about the possibility of a dream ticket: Hillary Clinton ROCKS!!! ---Gag me with a spoon.

  • 5 votes
#1.29 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:13 PM EDT
Samantha Gluck

Considering that smoking is now held in lower regard by many than pedophilia this cannot be good news for the Obama campaign.

So true. I have never smoked anything in my life; yet, somehow I am advocating for the rights of those who wish to do so. I know its a strange concept.

Maybe I'm just wrong.

  • 3 votes
#1.30 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:31 PM EDT
Bill Harrison

No, you're correct. Being a smoker I'm naturally inclined to Sen. Obama's predilections in this area and if elected I would hope that he would stand up to the overbearing nature of the anti-smoking zealots but based on past performance when it comes to such controversial issues I'm not hopeful in this regard.

  • 4 votes
#1.31 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:47 PM EDT
Behind My Screen

Because you have a right to poison me and my children apparently.

  • 3 votes
#1.32 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:52 PM EDT
determined0a1

We need to repair the damage done by Bush and the Republican Party, rather than continue on the same course.

Baaaloney, McCain is not getting more votes or money because he was not close to GWB.

And.....do you think that if a Senior doen't have a good judgement just a plain soldier because his camp give the Commandorship is going to be a wise Chief?

The Junior or Chicago is the puppet of Durbin, et al. With reason our Congress do as little as possible.

Now Bill you may delete my post.

  • 3 votes
#1.33 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:22 PM EDT
The OttO Show

Ahem. I know this thread is dead (and I wish I had come across this earlier, but I can't not respond to Mars.

Your example about McCain saying, "Thanks for the question, you little jerk" - have you bothered to watch the available video clip of this? I suggest you do so because once you do, I'm sure you will cease using this as an attack on McCain.

McCain was asked about his age and he answered it, he threw in a couple of jokes about his age (which received much laughter) and then touted his workaholic nature, his genes and defended his abilities, peppered with humor and surrounded by an amused audience. He then wrapped it up with, 'Thanks for the question, you little jerk', to which the crowd again laughed and McCain chuckled as well. I think it's safe to say that the 'little jerk' laughed too.

Watching it makes it obvious and undeniable that it was said humorously and non-hostile, a lighthearted jab in the context of a lighthearted speech. Your quote about it is so misleading it's nauseating. Kid asked question, Mac snapped back with 'little jerk'. Where ever you got that from should be shamed into retracting it.

This is right up there with the lie 'McCain plans 100 year war'. I guess I should feel good that these misleading trivialities represent the best cases against a President McCain.

  • 3 votes
#1.34 - Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:04 AM EDT
lisaed

Otto 1.34---have you noticed less reference by Obama to McCain's 100 years of war now that none of us (including the would be commander in chief himself) are all too sure how long obama really plans to stick around.......he seemed to want to expedite our exit regardless of conditions on the ground during primaries now not so much.

  • 3 votes
#1.35 - Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:01 PM EDT
Brian Ford

are all too sure how long obama really plans to stick around

Nothing like responding to a comment which calls someone out for pushing misleading information by pushing ... misleading information. Anyone who isn't looking to muddy the waters knows Obama's stance on Iraq and if I weren't aware that you've seen the information before, I see little need to try and post it *again* so you can ignore it.

  • 3 votes
#1.36 - Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:14 PM EDT
lisaed

Brian-1.36--the point I was trying to make to Otto is that I don't notice Obama talking as much about that disingenous "100 years" war bit re: McCain---do you?

  • 3 votes
#1.37 - Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:17 PM EDT
Brian Ford

If that was your point, what was all of the extra about Obama's own stance in there for?

Perhaps he's not talking about it much, but honestly, I'd say it has more to do with that point being driven into the ground.

  • 3 votes
#1.38 - Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:10 PM EDT
Samantha Gluck

he was a KGB goon who knew where all the bodies were buried. The transferrence of the personal onto the political is, imho, very dangerous.

OMG, Bill, the above quote gave me chills -- seriously. Scary.

  • 1 vote
#1.39 - Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:17 PM EDT
Reply
ShaunV

Excellent round up.

  • 6 votes
Reply#2 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:31 AM EDT
cranky old man

Well, I will just say this. I don't like the choices that are forced down our throats each election year.

Other than that, McCain is too old, and Obama is just too damn...I can't put my finger on it without pissing off someone and getting this highjacked. I will just say he is a little scary. Both of them are.

(sarcasm about McCain being old)

  • 6 votes
#3 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:35 AM EDT
JoulesBeef

mccains temper is more dangerous to the US than his age.

  • 7 votes
#3.1 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:08 PM EDT
determined0a1

Beef,

When a tsunami is coming the waters are very calm,i.e. Obama, under his "cool" in front of his peers needs a lot of tobacco to keep him going. Therefore, he is like McCain, just he is posing.

  • 5 votes
#3.2 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:25 PM EDT
lisaed

Determined -3.2--Obama is way to cool for me......being "cool" was never high on my list of preferred Presidential attributes.

  • 5 votes
#3.3 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 11:30 AM EDT
ShaunV

When a tsunami is coming the waters are very calm,i.e. Obama, under his "cool" in front of his peers needs a lot of tobacco to keep him going

Good point.

Being "too cool" takes practice.

It's like the practice required to deliver pre-formulated answers or rehearsed speeches. IMO, Obama shines as an Orator when giving obviously rehearsed speeches....but stutters and appears to need time to find the right words, when answering impromptu questions.

That is likely why he is refusing to engage in McCain's requested town hall debate series.

  • 5 votes
#3.4 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 11:42 AM EDT
lisaed

IMO, Obama shines as an Orator when giving obviously rehearsed speeches....but stutters and appears to need time to find the right words, when answering impromptu questions.

Shaun - 3.4---I completely agree---many of Obama's pundit admirers call his responses when forced to answer questions extemporaneously as "measured" or "thoughtful"---I call them "stammering"......

  • 5 votes
#3.5 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 11:55 AM EDT
Behind My Screen

Shaun,
Obama does not stutter and his pauses in speaking is a normal trait shared by everyone when they are thinking about what it is they want to say. Infact, pausing is soemthing that you have to practice so you can avoid sounding stupid with your "uhh, umm, ahh" noises.

Perhaps a person who relfects on what it is they are going to say before they say it is what you would prefer... Bush dosn't think before he speaks and look what it has done... he has insulted dignitaries and world leaders and said very stupid things.

it is sad that the level of inteligence in this country has dropped so low that people consider thought to be a bad sign.

  • 3 votes
#3.6 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:28 PM EDT
Behind My Screen

The first sentence of my second paragraph should say "Perhaps a person who doesn't reflect...."

I wish I caught that before edit ran out.

  • 1 vote
#3.7 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:42 PM EDT
lisaed

pausing is soemthing that you have to practice so you can avoid sounding stupid with your "uhh, umm, ahh" noises.

Behind the Screen - 3.6---I think you meant to address me, and not Shaun. That said Obama does quite a bit of the uumming and ahhhing noises when he is off script---hence I used the word "stammering" which is how it sounds to my can't stand him anyway ears.

  • 5 votes
#3.8 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:54 PM EDT
ShaunV

Shaun, Obama does not stutter and his pauses in speaking

Actually your right. Technically he does not stutter.......he stammers. Lisaed is using the more appropriate word, in post #3.5.

thought to be a bad sign.

Technically saying that he is "thinking" or "reflecting when he stammers is an assumption that has no way to be proven unless a brain scan was being conducted and televised as Obama speaks.

It's just a possible that he has brain freeze.

In any case, the fact that he only needs to reflect, when asked impromptu questions,suggests that his speeches are rehearsed because he never stammers or appears to "reflect" during campaign trail speeches. Also, he is likely memorizing speechs written by a speech writer. So, no need to think or reflect.

I wish I caught that before edit ran out.

I can so relate. Not to worry.

I did not even notice the missing word. My mind automatically interpreted your intended meaning from the context of the entire sentence.

  • 4 votes
#3.9 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:56 PM EDT
Adam Hobson

Ok, so I think it's pretty clear that I'm not Obamaite, but I don't get why this matters...

In any case, the fact that he only needs to reflect, when asked impromptu questions,suggests that his speeches are rehearsed because he never stammers or appears to "reflect" during campaign trail speeches. Also, he is likely memorizing speechs written by a speech writer. So, no need to think or reflect.

What national candidate doesn't have speechwriters or use a teleprompter or memorize speeches anymore?

How is needing to reflect before answering a question bad?

  • 6 votes
#3.10 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:10 PM EDT
finalcut

Because, Adam - it is important to focus as much energy as possible picking apart both candidates for non-issues. That's what the populace likes to do!

McCain is "OLD" Obama has a "Speechwriter"

McCain's wife has a plane! Obama's wife did a fist bump! Oh no!!!!!

Oh, you mean none of that has any bearing on their ability to lead, make informed (or ill informed decisions), or to maneuver in the international diplomatic sphere? Oh well - who cares about that stuff anyway?

  • 2 votes
#3.11 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:17 PM EDT
ShaunV

How is needing to reflect before answering a question bad

Adam:

I think you need to read a few comments up to get the larger picture regarding my comment.

I am not saying needing to reflect is bad. I don't know if Obama is reflecting when he stammers, or if he isn't.

I am simply saying that stammering is not absolute indication of reflection. Stammering may or may not be a sign of thinking or reflecting. To say that stammering automatically equates to reflection is an assumption. Nothing more.

As I mentioned a few posts up, to prove that the stammering is not simply a symptom of brain freeze one would need to televise a brain scan that can image the type of brain activity indicative of a cogitative cognitive process, during the questioning.

My point is that there is all this flap about Obama being a great orator, but, he is simply memorizing a speech. Not reflecting.

So he can memorize and read a speech and do it well. That's not politics.....that's acting. It's not an indication that he would make a good president.

  • 5 votes
#3.12 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:21 PM EDT
Brian Ford

My point is that there is all this flap about Obama being a great orator, but, he is simply memorizing a speech. Not reflecting.

If "memorizing a speech" were all there is to it, why can't George Bush do it? Or thousands upon thousands of other people who simply aren't able to deliver an inspirational speech given time to memorize the text.

Lets also not forget, that he writes much of what he memorizes.

I think you're misrepresenting the things that people admire about him, just a bit.

  • 4 votes
#3.13 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:26 PM EDT
ShaunV

Adam:

To add:

Also they likely both have a speech writer. I agree.

The point is not the speech or whether or not it is written. The point is only that being a good orator...one who can read a scripted speech well, does not indicate one will be a good president. A good actor maybe?

Still everyone is crowing about what a good orator Obama is. So he's a good orator?

Some people excel at public speaking and others seem to freeze up and sound awkward. Being a superlative public speaker or a poor one has nothing to do with being able to run a country.

  • 3 votes
#3.14 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:27 PM EDT
Behind My Screen

Nothing any man has done indicates how well they will be president. How many presidents had a ton of political and even executive experience and have sucked monky ba--s? A LOT. How many have had very little experience in politics and no executive experience and have been good or even great? quite a few. what about the reverse? I would say the remaining presidents represent such things. Nothing can predict with any accuracy how good of a president someone will be so you might as well focus on things that can predict something about their administration... the policies they promote.

  • 3 votes
#3.15 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 4:09 PM EDT
Adam Hobson

Nothing any man has done indicates how well they will be president.

Perhaps the smartest thing I've ever read this entire election season.

It's all guesswork. Obviously a candidate with a long history gives us a but more information to make a guesses a bit more accurate, but that's mostly it.

It's even hard to judge a candidate by their stated policies, because things change (and candidates lie). Remember, Bush ran on a platform of no nation building and the like. Then 9/11 happens and that was thrown out the door.

When I analyze a candidate I like to look more at how they think, and why their policies are the way they are. What is their view on the role of government, what is their general view on America's role in the world, etc, etc. If I can get a glimpse of how a candidate thinks and why they think what they do, that can help me judge their prospects as president.

  • 3 votes
#3.16 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 4:22 PM EDT
finalcut

Nothing any man has done indicates how well they will be president.

That was exactly my point in #12 and my replies to #13

The entire discussion about experience, or age, is pretty useless.

    #3.17 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 4:25 PM EDT
    Behind My Screen

    I am glad I can hold such an honor Adam :-)

    • 2 votes
    #3.18 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:11 PM EDT
    Bill Harrison

    finalcut

    The entire discussion about experience, or age, is pretty useless.

    I would agree with the latter proposition (and that's why I wrote this piece to counter many of nitwit leftwing seeds suggesting that Sen. McCain is one, senile or two, by virtue of his age alone nearing doddering imbecility). "Experience", however, broadly understood goes to the entire warp of a person's career and to his or her character as revealed by it. I would suggest that in Barack Obama, other than his possessing a seemingly appealing personality and undoubted intelligence, there's little to suggest what kind of president he would make and given his liberal Senate voting record there's a lot not to like at least from my perspective. This is not in and of itself dispositive of what kind of president he might turn out to be as Harry Truman had no real formal education, was the product of a corrupt local political machine in the form of the old Pendergrass gang in Kansas City, was a man of blunt manner and was kept in the dark by FDR as v.p. (and was only put in to stymie the Henry Wallace wing of the party) until Roosevelt's sudden death thrust him onto the stage but still managed to be a pretty damn good president.

    • 4 votes
    #3.19 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 10:05 PM EDT
    ShaunV

    Nothing any man has done indicates how well they will be president.

    That is a rather obvious statment. No argument there. I have mentioned this in numerous threads as have many others.

    Yes, it's all guess work. That is why the longer the track record the easier it is to judge the candidate.

    IMO, Obama is a much bigger risk than McCain. Although, neither candidate, is perfect. Obviously.

    When I analyze a candidate I like to look more at how they think, and why their policies are the way they are. What is their view on the role of government, what is their general view on America's role in the world, etc, etc. If I can get a glimpse of how a candidate thinks and why they think what they do, that can help me judge their prospects as president.

    Agreed Adam.

    I, personally prefer less government involvement, and more focus on the holistic approach of making the entire country healthier. When the country as a whole is healthy, IMO, everything else will fall into place.

    The other issue, out of ANY presidents control, however, is the global economy. Right now the global economy is in an unhealthy state. That in part hugely impacts the US economy. Hence placing blame for economic conditions solely on the US president is shortsighted.

    • 5 votes
    #3.20 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:05 AM EDT
    Behind My Screen

    You claim that it was obvious, but then contradict it. Track records help the voter see if the person's policies are just pandering, that is it. Track records do not help predict how good of a president someone will be.

    • 2 votes
    #3.21 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:37 AM EDT
    Reply
    BlaiseP

    You will notice, in every such instance, these Prime Ministers and such were all symbols. Churchill and DeGaulle's reputations, especially Churchill, was one of blundering idiot. I was in Niger Republic, listening to DeGaulle's frantic cries to the French, "Francaises, Francais! Aidez-moi!", hardly the sort of thing one expects from the head of state. DeGaulle was an arrogant little @!$%# whom none of the Allies liked.

    Adenauer was the only man anyone could remember from pre-War Germany, or who had survived the war, who could satisfy the occupying powers. Golda Meir blackmailed Nixon with her nuclear weapons. Mandela has not presided over a happy reunification of his blighted if beautiful country.

    The old represent something which might be regained. It is a wistful look backward, usually through rose-colored glasses. The old have had their time, I have had mine. If the old represent experience, they got it when they were young. May God preserve this country from the fate of Germany, led into disaster by another very old man who did not make your list: Adolf Hitler's immediate predecessor, Paul von Hindenburg, born in 1843 was 86 years old at the Machtergreifung.

    • 4 votes
    #4 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:56 AM EDT
    Bill Harrison

    I'm well aware of Paul von Hindenburg and the unscrupulous use to which he was put by Adolph Hitler and I'm also quite aware of the debilitating strokes that afflicted Churchill at the end of his political career. But again you're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. None of what you write, which is all historically correct insofar as it goes, will change the signal fact of Churchill's inspired leadership of his country in her darkest hour, de Gaulle's considerable courage in standing up to the OAS in Algeria (indeed as far as Algeria is concerned probably only de Gaulle had the standing to end the bloodshed) or Mrs. Meir's leadership which I document here only in mere outline or perhaps you would have preferred that she adopt the stance advocated by Elazar? But again, my only reason for writing this piece is to point out the manifest stupidity of those who would say a person's age (if not accompanied by mental impairment) should play a large role in voters consideration of the candidates.

    Much of this is the unfortnate consequence of the television age in which a Franklin Roosevelt could probably not be elected and whose infancy brought us the adulation of a man considerably diminished by physical problems in the personage of Jack Kennedy (Kennedy's perpetual tan was the result of his Addison's disease).

    • 6 votes
    #4.1 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:18 AM EDT
    Youssef51

    Excellent review, Bill.

    I disagree with your fundamental premise. The performance of Churchill, Meir or Adenauer has very little relevance for judging Senator McCain's fitness on the basis of his age.

    A few simple observations:

    1) Winston Churchill, in his dotage and drunk, would never have made the embarrassing verbal blunders and frightening lapses that Senator McCain makes every other time he opens his mouth. Churchill was a historian and a very, very literate man. He had more class in his dandruff than Senator McCain has in his entire body.

    2) Golda Meir - as a 70 year old - was a shrewd woman, a devastating political infighter and had a wicked sense of humor. She never lost her temper in public. She didn't need Joseph Lieberman hanging on her shoulder in public telling her what to say. She would have shut him up in about 4 seconds.

    I could continue with Adenauer and de Gaullle, but you get the picture. Also, I would not have brought Mandela up at all in this context if I were you.

    • 7 votes
    #4.2 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:43 AM EDT
    Samantha Gluck

    Youseff: Great rebuttal! I don't agree with it, but I just wanted to point out how refreshing it is to see a comment in disagreement with someone that is respectful and not filled with vitriol.

    My faith in debate is restored. Sort of...

    • 5 votes
    #4.3 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:52 AM EDT
    Bill Harrison

    I disagree with your fundamental premise. The performance of Churchill, Meir or Adenauer has very little relevance for judging Senator McCain's fitness on the basis of his age.

    Thank you brother, Youssef. There is little question that Churchill was a man possessed of immense talents with respect to both the written and spoken word. But as you well know from your study of Plato's Gorgias, rhetoric was not held in high regard by him. For as our friend BlaiseP points out, Churchill's actual policy ideas, going back to Gallipoli, weren't the best in the drawer and we won't even bring up India. But since this is a disquisition on the subject of mere age as either a qualifier or disqualifier for high public office nothing you've said in any way changes Senator McCain's qualifications for the job based on the examples I cite or the public knowledge of his health which is by all accounts excellent.

    And btw, his comments on Iranian aid to Sunni insurgent groups in Iraq weren't as far off as commonly believed by many of the less informed.

    But then again you believe that Barack Obama, by virtue of his silver tongue and amount of melanin in his skin, is the perfect candidate for the period of history on which we are about to embark. Unfortuntately for many of us, however, we don't like sailing into unknown waters with a chart resembling a tabula rasa.

    • 8 votes
    #4.4 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:29 PM EDT
    Samantha Gluck

    Unfortuntately for many of us, however, we don't like sailing into unknown waters with a chart resembling a tabula rasa.

    Who ARE you Bill Harrison? I hadn't thought of tabula rasa since high school. How do you keep all that information so readily accessible? You have an amazing wealth of historical knowledge. Do you study the classics as well?

    I agree with the quote by the way, and what an elegant way to put it!

    • 5 votes
    #4.5 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:32 PM EDT
    BlaiseP

    Churchill's leadership during WW2 has been considerably overrated. It was not England's finest hour. It was England's direst hour, and it would be Franklin Roosevelt who saved Britain, not the inept if eloquent fire breathing philippics of Churchill. There were no elections at the time: the government was on a war footing. At any rate, when the war was over, Churchill was ignominiously removed.

    Churchill was a historian after a fashion, a self-congratulatory, verbose and often bed historian, and he made a good deal of history, but by no means is he the Inspired Leader, any more than our current president's incredible poll numbers reflected GWB's Inspired Leadership. History did not vindicate Churchill: he presided over the greatest diminishing of any Empire since the death of Alexander of Macedon. The country rallied around Churchill as it rallied around GWB. I remember once telling you, it was probably 9/12 or 9/13 of 2001, that I would put aside my criticisms for the nonce: it didn't seem appropriate. We see now what comes of putting ideologues in the Oval Office.

    Golda Meir was an arrogant fool. Under her wise leadership, Israel was caught flat-footed in both the Munich Olympics and the Yom Kippur War. She was an obstacle to peace and reconciliation with the Palestinians and Egyptians, and connived with Abdallah of Jordan to ensure the Palestinians would never achieve autonomy. More proof idealists have no business in politics.

    Konrad Adenauer was to the Americans whatever they wanted him to be. He let nuclear weapons into West Germany, he instituted a draft, and was hugely incompetent. He was, at the end of the day, one of the few Germans who wasn't tainted by Nazism. He was a third stringer.

    As for Nelson Mandela, he's a fine old gentleman, but let's not forget the reality of South Africa today. When the going got tough, he resorted to horrible acts of violence, and has freely admitted his wasn't exactly a Gandhi-esque satyagraha. He was a killer, and a leader of killers. He is damned near a saint these days, and everyone loves him, but in his day, he wasn't above bombing and torture and executions when they served his purposes. Mandela did nothing in the war against AIDS when something could and should have been done.

    My point being this: idealists make bad leaders. Fine advisors, yes. But like Jimmy Carter, these old duffers are best left to opine from the rocking chair and from behind their keyboards. Given any power at all, their idealism betrays them. There is no fool like an old fool. McCain is just such a fool, and all who vote for him are fools of his stripe. They wish for what never was and never could be. McCain as President would be an unmitigated disaster.

    As for DeGaulle, I only repeat myself in saying the man was an arrogant jackass.

    • 3 votes
    #4.6 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:51 PM EDT
    Bill Harrison

    Samantha

    I have something of an eidetic memory which is something of both a blessing and a curse. My advanced education is in European history but my broader education is liberal in the best sense of that term.

    • 5 votes
    #4.7 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:14 PM EDT
    Bill Harrison

    Blaise

    And I will only repeat myself when it comes to the charms of "vigah".

    • 4 votes
    #4.8 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:25 PM EDT
    JoulesBeef

    And btw, his comments on Iranian aid to Sunni insurgent groups in Iraq weren't as far off as commonly believed by many of the less informed.

    LOL prove it.. seriously prove it.
    OH you mean that huge weapons cache we were going to prove an iranian link and then it turns out the weaposn were all iraqi made. LOL

    Seriously if you are going to make a statement he was right.. prove it,.

    • 5 votes
    #4.9 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:33 PM EDT
    Youssef51

    BlaiseP:

    I understand your objections and know that we should not give in to any temptation to deify Churchill. He made awful mistakes and he had many, many years to make his mistakes. I still think you underestimate him and think too little of his astonishing symbolic strength in embodying the struggle against the Axis. He was not a great historian, but he wrote books - some of them very entertaining and some of them written when he was a very old man. How would you like to read a history book written by Senator McCain in recent years? You would not get past page three. You would get to the first passage about Vietnam and you would throw the book in the garbage.

    I think you misjudge Meir badly. She lived an incredible life and demonstrated a selflessness as PM that is far too rare among politicians. She has been exonerated from much of the blame around the Yom Kippur War.

    Bill:

    But then again you believe that Barack Obama, by virtue of his silver tongue and amount of melanin in his skin, is the perfect candidate for the period of history on which we are about to embark.

    No, neither of those factors holds much weight with me. Senator Obama doesn't have that much more melanin than I do and I'm not telling anybody that I should be president. He is a good speaker and that is important because it shows the ability to think on one's feet. This is terrible contrast to certain other currently active US politicians. But it is not decisive. No, what is decisive for me is the simple fact that Obama's heart is in the right place - he demonstrated that in his early years in Chicago - and that he represents a desperately needed new start for the US domestically and internationally. He is an intelligent and moral man who will make an excellent president.

    Notice I did not say "would make", Bill, I said "will make".

    Unfortuntately for many of us, however, we don't like sailing into unknown waters with a chart resembling a tabula rasa.

    You accuse Obama of being a politician. Guilty as charged.

    I'll tell you something else. I'm having serious problems trying to think of a member of the US Senate who I think would make a worse president than John McCain.

    His age is a symptom - not a cause. Many older men would make far better presidents. I don't doubt for an instant that there are men older than McCain who would make better presidents than Obama. However, we don't have that choice which make matters very simple.

    • 1 vote
    #4.10 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:13 PM EDT
    Bill Harrison

    We shall continue to agree to disagree vis-a-vis the relative merits of Senator Obama and Senator McCain. For my perspective I believe McCain would retain the best of the Bush foreign policy (and I will not be drawn into a side debate on that issue in this venue if anyone's thinking of doing so) while also tempering some of its flaws chief among them an unwillingness to modify one's thinking in adapting to changing situations. We can see this very clearly in his early advocacy of additional troops and a change of tactics in Iraq, a change many of us were calling for years before Gen. David Petraeus's name became a household word.

    Innate intelligence, in and of itself, is highly overrated when it comes to presidential leadership. I offer as Exhibits A, B, C and D the examples of Woodrow Wilson, Herbert Hoover, Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter who were probably the most intelligent men to hold the office in the twentieth century.

    • 4 votes
    #4.11 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:02 PM EDT
    Youssef51

    Woodrow Wilson, Herbert Hoover, Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter

    Good point.

    Still, are we better off today with a knuckle-head?

      #4.12 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
      BlaiseP

      If age-ism is to be the matter for discussion, allow me to make this point: age does not generally improve people and especially not politicians. In the very young, we observe the acquisition of what will become modes of life. We see temperament develop, skill sets emerge, preferences and predilections, dislikes, in short all that makes us individuals.

      There is in the Bible a passage, rendered in the King James as "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it". The verb "Train up", CHANAK is used of things at their beginnings, with the implication of choking off options, and the pruning of plants, especially vines. Curiously, CHANAK also has a root in strangulation and the dedication of a building. That's what growing up is, we start out with all our options open. Life closes them off, we only see those doors closing as we pass them by. The old are narrowed, both in their viewpoints and in their responses.

      The old have pat reactions: they're predictable. That's why it's easy to scam older people. They don't consciously think about most of what they're doing: their lives are composed of larger and larger chunks of actions until most of their lives are lived in autopilot. When great changes in their lives emerge, they're brittle. The remainder of that odd little verse I quoted, Proverbs 22:6, is more closely rendered, says ""even that he-is growing old, he will-not withdraw from [that mode/way]" In other words, a young man can be advised and an old man can't. He's stuck in that mode of life.

      This is not to say the old are entirely inflexible, but based on what I've seen of John McCain, age has not improved him. The old don't fight the way they once did. McCain's eating a lot of cheeze these days. David Foster Wallace, interviewed in last month's WSJ observed.

      WSJ: Have you changed your mind about any of the points that you made in the book?

      Mr. Wallace: In the best political tradition, I reject the premise of your question. The essay quite specifically concerns a couple weeks in February, 2000, and the situation of both McCain [and] national politics in those couple weeks. It is heavily context-dependent. And that context now seems a long, long, long time ago. McCain himself has obviously changed; his flipperoos and weaselings on Roe v. Wade, campaign finance, the toxicity of lobbyists, Iraq timetables, etc. are just some of what make him a less interesting, more depressing political figure now—for me, at least. It's all understandable, of course—he's the GOP nominee now, not an insurgent maverick. Understandable, but depressing. As part of the essay talks about, there's an enormous difference between running an insurgent Hail-Mary-type longshot campaign and being a viable candidate (it was right around New Hampshire in 2000 that McCain began to change from the former to the latter), and there are some deep, really rather troubling questions about whether serious honor and candor and principle remain possible for someone who wants to really maybe win. I wouldn't take back anything that got said in that essay, but I'd want a reader to keep the time and context very much in mind on every page.

      McCain is a mess. An old, tired, unrepentant, irascible old coot. Age has not improved him. His is the tremulous, febrile, intemperate anger only seen in the elderly. I am no great fan of Obama, but the country has had a gracious plenty of John McCain. McCain surrendered the only thing which made him worth consideration: his independence, for one last joust. He's beyond hope. If elected, he will make George Bush look good by comparison.

      • 3 votes
      #4.13 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:12 PM EDT
      Youssef51

      Excellent.

      My only comment in reply to

      Curiously, CHANAK also has a root in strangulation and the dedication of a building.

      Those Semites. What a bunch.

      When I was a young man I once ate a simple dinner in a tiny dining room on a high hill in Palestine. A very wise woman said to me from across the table:

      "You do well to study the language. It will give you something to think about for the rest of your life."

        #4.14 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 4:04 AM EDT
        Youssef51

        It just occurred to me, speaking of CHANAK, that the word

        חנוכה

        comes from the same triliteral root.

          #4.15 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 3:36 PM EDT
          Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

          My first name is all I remember in Hebrew. I'm not Jewish.

          דָּנִיֵּאל

          I just like languages.

          And there is a big difference between chronological age and mental age. So, McCain, a crotchety, stubby little, antediluvian, with rickets and Alzheimer's, that's why he such a awful liar, and flips more then a fish on a dock out of water, he can't remember all the lies he tells or keep track of what he said from one day tot the next.

          • 1 vote
          #4.16 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 4:02 PM EDT
          Reply
          Better Careful

          McCain often has that deer-in-the-headlights look. He gets confused and forgets what he said, and to whom he said it. He speaks off the top of his head, thoughtlessly at times, even impulsively. His train of thought wanders and he is given to relying on sound bites and message nuggets when given the opportunity to communicate.
          The disaster of the Bush war will continue under McCain, he has made this clear - or has he? At least as of yesterday it was clear that he intends the US to continue occupying and oppressing a sovereign foreign nation. He has made no intimation that to invade a sovereign foreign nation without cause, other than the plundering of its national resources, is wrong.
          He has made no statement defending our civil liberties and has not shown any interest in restoring the rule of law. He has not even acknowledged that the powers abrogated by Bush are un-American. We are all subject to being kidnapped, held without charges, and tortured, by the whim of a man or his flunkies today, as if the US were some third-world country. This I resent, but McCain ignores.
          He has acted, rather than spoke, as if the plunder of the US economy and society by Big Corporate will continue. He will, by default, continue the fascism institutionalized by Bush, especially, but also by the entire gang of thieves. His lobbyist problems and actions speak much louder than his words on this matter.
          He has said he will not raise taxes, and has offered no plan to reduce spending. The most gratuitous spending we have, on the military, he will increase. Our nation and people will suffer as a consequence. I am waiting for his plan and want to hear what programs he will cut. I want to know which programs he will stop when he gets the chance via veto, when those programs come up for renewal.
          I've had enough of the smarmy sort of sneer-and-smear tactics of the right-wing and see nothing in McCain that indicates he will not indulge in them. His arrogance and narcissism is glaring. I trust he will do what makes him feel good about himself, first, and then worry about the rest of us. He is the insiders insider, and will behave as such. So it goes, this is a given. Neither self-serving nor wing-it will get us out of the mess Bush and the Republicans have gotten us into.
          Besides this, he is just too old and frail. He's too reactionary and impulsive. He's too rash and nasty. He's not what we need.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#5 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:02 AM EDT
          Bill Harrison

          Nice rant.

          • 8 votes
          #5.1 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:20 AM EDT
          Nathan Johnson

          Barack Obama was for NAFTA before he was against it.

          • 5 votes
          #5.2 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:23 PM EDT
          determined0a1

          Who is more forgetful, Obama or McCain? Obama is several years his junior

          I did not know.

          I wasn't informed.

          I did not have time for reading the SCOTUS

          It's not my handwriting

          I wasn't attended that day to the Church

          I did not hear his strong words in the sermons

          I was for the immediate withdrawal of the troops before and now will be gradual

          • 4 votes
          #5.3 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:36 PM EDT
          Jimster

          Well said PDeuth. Sums up my feelings about McCain perfectly.

          • 2 votes
          #5.4 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:22 PM EDT
          Reply
          tschreck

          bottom line is that harrison is right.. mccaain is not too old to be president..

          he's just too senile.

          for once harrison, you get a vote from me.

          • 7 votes
          Reply#6 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:58 AM EDT
          Samantha Gluck

          he's just too senile.

          Uncalled for comment, tscheck. Is it possible to oppose someone without denigrating them personally? Denigrate their ideas and beliefs is far more intelligent and could be taken seriously by those you wish to sway. Personal attacks discredit any intelligent remark you may offer subsequently.

          • 6 votes
          #6.1 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:50 AM EDT
          tschreck

          you have a right to your opinion ms cluck, as do i..

          part of my opposition to mr. mccain is his hot headed senility, amongst other things..

          i believe that he is not of sound mind or body, two things that i consider requirements of the office of president.

          pointing out his senility is not a personal attack, but rather an observation of his fitness for office.

          • 7 votes
          #6.2 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:06 PM EDT
          Samantha Gluck

          cluck cluck tscheck and tsk tsk:

          I see your point in part. However, true senility is a medical condition and can only be verified by a doctor personally treating the patient. I do believe that an outside doctor can at times make a good educated guess regarding some medical conditions by watching video of the patient. Are you a medical doctor?

          • 3 votes
          #6.3 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:21 PM EDT
          tschreck

          Are you a medical doctor?

          nope, but i play one on tv..

          seriously though, i've been around long enough to recognize a person on the downside of their facilities..

          • 7 votes
          #6.4 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:32 PM EDT
          Samantha Gluck

          nope, but i play one on tv..

          Now THAT made me laugh tscheck. Maybe we can be friends after all. If you behave. :)

          • 2 votes
          #6.5 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:43 PM EDT
          determined0a1

          How "considerate and compassionate" are the followers of Obama!

          • 4 votes
          #6.6 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:38 PM EDT
          Samantha Gluck

          determined0a1, are you under the mistaken belief that I follow Obama?

          Let me make it clear now: NO, I do not follow Obama, if what you mean by 'follow' is to 'support'.

          • 3 votes
          #6.7 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:50 PM EDT
          determined0a1

          Sam,

          I was reading #6.2

          • 2 votes
          #6.8 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 12:20 PM EDT
          Samantha Gluck

          Sam,

          I was reading #6.2

          Well, thank G-d for small favors! I was hoping I wasn't that easy to misunderstand!

          • 2 votes
          #6.9 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 9:11 PM EDT
          Reply
          Samantha Gluck

          de Gaulle retired from politics before being summoned to power and forming the Fifth French Republic in 1958 at the age of 68.

          Excellent and informative piece cementing what I knew about age inherently as a result of my childhood. My father (who was 26 years older than my mother) worked full time as a jeweler and clock maker until he was 98. There was even a piece done about him in a couple of newspapers in my home town. He had customers who drove over a hundred miles just to have him and no other work on their fine pieces. He had his full faculties until the very end. That said, I know McCain isn't too old. Neither was Reagan. I remember all the flak he took because of his age.

          By the way, your knowledge and scope continue to stun me when I read your articles.

          • 5 votes
          Reply#7 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:40 AM EDT
          Bill Harrison

          Samantha, I have always been something of a Francophile and de Gaulle is one of my personal heroes despite the fact, as Blaise alludes to, that he was a prickly and difficult character. His view of the necessity of the state as sometimes being a necessarily a "cold monster" is consistent with my own and completely antithetical to the modern "touchy feely" approach to government advocated by our mediocrities. Among his lasting bon mots is my favorite, "The graveyards are full of indispensable men."

          • 5 votes
          #7.1 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:35 PM EDT
          Samantha Gluck

          sometimes being a necessarily a "cold monster" is consistent with my own and completely antithetical to the modern "touchy feely" approach to government advocated by our mediocrities

          Now this I totally agree with. As a woman I have enough touchy feely thoughts coursing at will through out my intellect. I need my leaders and protectors to be what I cannot -- cold and tough when necessary.

          "The graveyards are full of indispensable men."

          So true -- and they could use a few more :)

          • 4 votes
          #7.2 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:42 PM EDT
          Samantha Gluck

          Samantha, I have always been something of a Francophile and de Gaulle is one of my personal heroes despite the fact,

          Always? I was never a Francophile until Sarkozy (although he has recently done some things with which I take issue). When I liked the French president more than my own, that sealed the deal. Then I saw his wife! She is quite the woman. Of course....I don't know why I like her so much... I don't know of any other women who were told they were a princess by their daddies all their lives... no I don't ...

          Anyway, my 13 year old son is fluent in French. I know three languages and French isn't one of them since I rejected it until Sarkozy. Now I'm trying to learn. Oh yes, I also know a dead language.

          • 3 votes
          #7.3 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:40 PM EDT
          Bill Harrison

          Yes, pretty much. Remember that it was a visting Frenchman, Alexis de Tocqueville, who wrote the best treatise on American democracy ever penned. As a boy I thrilled to the stories of the Lafayette Escadrille. Later in life my enthusiasms for France expanded to more mature interests along the lines of the wondrous Catherine Deneuve, the sublime music of Hector Berlioz, Edith Piaf, the paintings of Monet and Manet, fine cuisine, and a fondness for visiting La Piscine Deligny's top deck and visiting there with the beautiful and friendly womenfolk before that Parisian institution met its bitter and still unexplained end.

          • 4 votes
          #7.4 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:17 PM EDT
          Samantha Gluck

          In that case, you are called from birth to have this 'French Connection' (no pun intended). I too loved reading Alexis de Tocqueville; although its been awhile. You have inspired me.

          Would you do me a personal favor?

          • 2 votes
          #7.5 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:33 PM EDT
          Bill Harrison

          Well I suppose that depends on what you might be asking me to do, Samantha.

          • 4 votes
          #7.6 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:05 PM EDT
          Reply
          Dr Danny

          I agree with the sentiments that this article was a good review of leaders in the latter parts of their life doing extraordinary things - being a Brit Churchill will always be held in high regard by us. McCain could well follow in their footsteps. I think his opponents are really getting desperate and clutching at straws if they need to make an issue of his age.

          • 6 votes
          #8 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:45 AM EDT
          Samantha Gluck

          Dr. Danny: Yes, and it is unfair regardless of whether you want him to win or not. The same crowd that is attacking his age attack female candidates based on their fashion flaws, imperfect looks, make-up, etc. It is vicious and wrong.

          • 6 votes
          #8.1 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:48 AM EDT
          JoulesBeef

          so I guess samantha you wil stand up for barrack when they claim he is too young an inexperienced..
          wait so if obamas youth and inexperience is on table.. why not he fact that mccain is old enough hat all of his views are set.. or the fact he isnt changing with the times and growing.. like learning the net.

          Like it or not his age is an issue.. this is the presidency, not just some job.. all things must be considered. SUre some of it is wrong, like claiming he is senile without medical proof, but us commetnors are allowed to do that and you are allowed to bust us on it.
          But sorry age is an issue.
          shoot mccain in an off way is using his age abnd an issue, saying he has soo much experience, well youc ant get a lot of experience withotu a lot of time.. AKA AGE.

          • 3 votes
          #8.2 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:40 PM EDT
          ShaunV

          Like it or not his age is an issue

          Saying someone is inexperienced does not automatically equate to being young. The fact is Obama is inexperienced in many political areas. A 90 year old can be inexperienced is certain political arenas.

          Saying someone is inexperienced is quite different from saying they are senile.

          • 6 votes
          #8.3 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:52 PM EDT
          Mars313

          Saying someone is inexperienced is quite different from saying they are senile.

          Only if the "senile" person isn't senile. Otherwise it's pretty much the same, a calling out of the facts. Am I wrong?

            #8.4 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:02 PM EDT
            JoulesBeef

            true and people at 72 can be dead as well that's not the point... generally youth and inexperience goes hand and hand, you generally cant get experience until time has passed..plus you have to be 35 to become president so youthful age is an issue. AS MANY here on the vine are legally too young to be president. can we not politcally discuss that maybe their is a legal upper age limit for the presidency since they have a lower one? what about the fact that many of us are forced into retirement at 65?

            but if age doesnt matter at all, would you support the runnign of an 98 year old candidate, int hese times? and would you claim that his age is off topic concidering he probably wouldn't survie his term?

            so if it is ok with a 98 year old.. what is the cut off age, that we are allowed to tactfully discuss his age?

            OK how about this.. I guess this statement is all kind of wrong in your book.
            my grandmother says "she will vote for mccain as he is the same age as her and understands the trials and problems as she undertsands them"
            I guess that is off limits sicne we cant talk about his age huh?

            and I agree no one on tv should say mccian is senile, that is slander.
            they can say he has senor moment s and that his age may be an issue.

            and last you know mccain is too old to join the army now? he is too old to serve int eh arms forces even though they increased the age limit.. if we can discuss thigns like this and why, we don't recruit people in their 70's then we are allowed to discuss it for presidnet.

            amaizng people just want issues off the table.. cause they don't feel it should be an issue.. well guess what we are all differnt.. and for some of us it is an issue.

            • 3 votes
            #8.5 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:04 PM EDT
            ShaunV

            Only if the "senile" person isn't senile. Otherwise it's pretty much the same, a calling out of the facts. Am I wrong?

            Brain scans on McCain's recent physical would have picked up the brain plaques associated with Alzheimers or dementia. In addition doctors have a set of criteria that are used to determine mental capacity.

            So, yes, Mars, you are wrong because rather than dealing with facts you are simply reflecting a personal prejudice associated with ageism.

            Ageism is no different than racism or sexism. It's a personal prejudice not rooted in factual reality.

            • 5 votes
            #8.6 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:50 PM EDT
            Youssef51

            Brain scans on McCain's recent physical would have picked up the brain plaques associated with Alzheimers or dementia.

            Alzheimers, maybe, dementia, not likely. Also, given the amount of outright lying going on in US politics for the last few years I figure the man could be suffering from all kinds of maladies and we would not know squat.

            How's about just suffering from a very short fuse and a foul mouth?

            • 1 vote
            #8.7 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:58 PM EDT
            Samantha Gluck

            Youseff, you mean to say you don't personally know anyone that you respect in many ways but cusses like a sailor drunk on St. Patty's day in Ireland? While I prefer the cursing remain in movies and hip hop songs, (just kidding) a few of these types have some of the most intelligent and creative things to say regarding solutions to issues, etc. -- if you can get past the mouth.

            • 4 votes
            #8.8 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:07 PM EDT
            ShaunV

            Youseff51:

            Dementia, is diagnosable, particularly an irreversible dementia. The assumption that an older person automatically has dementia is ageism, nothing more.

            The process of diagnosing dementia has become more accurate in recent years, and specialists are able to analyze the large amount of data collected and determine if there is a problem, the severity, and, often, the cause of the dementia. Occasionally, there may be a combination of causes or it may take time to monitor the individual to be sure of a diagnosis. Determining whether the cause is a reversible or irreversible condition guides the treatment and care for the affected person and family.

            http://www.caregiver.org/caregiver/jsp/content_node.jsp?nodeid=1653

            As for "cussin"......yawn. Who doesn't cuss now and then.

            I prefer someone who honestly reflects their emotions now and then to someone who is always silver tongued and controlled.

            We always hear about the perfect student, or the Casper milk toast who goes postal. Controlled and silver tongued can sometimes be the hallmarks of a con man.....So someone cusses....Oh my!. .

            • 5 votes
            #8.9 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:13 PM EDT
            lisaed

            Youssef - 8.7---I read some of those swear word vignettes re: McCain and I think it made me like him more.....and that's saying something given I'm no big huge fan to begin with.

            • 5 votes
            #8.10 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:31 PM EDT
            Samantha Gluck

            lisaed! Girl! You just won me over. Now, up front -- just so ya know kinda thing -- I am a staunch conservative and when I see others who do not agree with my own beliefs stand up for balance and fairness, I know I have witnessed an honorable person. Wow!

            • 4 votes
            #8.11 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:35 PM EDT
            Youssef51

            Youseff, you mean to say you don't personally know anyone that you respect in many ways but cusses like a sailor drunk on St. Patty's day in Ireland?

            No, I don't.

            I'll add that I live in a society where people very rarely curse. It's considered aggressive and / or drunken behavior. Unacceptable.

            It has been claimed that our dialects contain no swear words. This is true to a certain point. There are some words that verge on being obscene and of course one can always compare people to animals etc. Our most extreme "obscenity" is usually translated into English as "devil".

            Also, I don't like cursing. I think it shows a serious character weakness.

            Those of you who dote on Senator McCain above like some slightly addled but still loveable uncle should talk to his colleagues in the Senate. They are seemingly not so charmed. A grand total of four of them supported him against Bush in 2000. Even after Bush's disgraceful smear campaign.

            • 1 vote
            #8.12 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:56 PM EDT
            Youssef51

            The assumption that an older person automatically has dementia is ageism, nothing more.

            And who in their right mind would assume such foolishness?

            Completely moot point. Hasn't stopped it from being repeated several times here.

            Boring.

            • 1 vote
            #8.13 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:59 PM EDT
            Samantha Gluck

            Also, I don't like cursing. I think it shows a serious character weakness.

            Of course, habitual cursing, and maybe cursing at all, points to a character weakness. Can you show me any great leader that does not have a character weakness? We all have them. Mine isn't cursing -- but I have one (and no to all you lib friends out there, my character weakness is NOT conservativeness LOL!)

            • 3 votes
            #8.14 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:12 PM EDT
            Youssef51

            Matter of degree, Samantha.

            As I mentioned, here we see any cursing as character weakness. I concur.

            McCain has serious self-control issues. There is no way to joke this away. I think he would be a liability as president.

            Also, great leaders, being human beings, have character weaknesses.

            • 2 votes
            #8.15 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:23 PM EDT
            Samantha Gluck

            In all seriousness, I know we need a man of good, strong character to lead this country. McCain is not my first choice, but the alternative is much worse in my opinion. I have to overlook the control issues for the greater good. Know what I mean?

            • 4 votes
            #8.16 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:31 PM EDT
            lisaed

            Youssef---I don't see how using the occasional cuss word to make a point is a serious character flaw.

            • 4 votes
            #8.17 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:33 PM EDT
            Brian Ford

            Like making the point that your wife is a @!$%#, for example.

            • 4 votes
            #8.18 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:33 PM EDT
            Bill Harrison

            LOL. Bringing up that old horse@!$%# thrown out by Cliff Schecter are we Brian? Supposedly witnessed by at least three reporters but never reported (that's normally referred to as news in the non-bizarro world)? You best stick with writing about Macs.

            • 8 votes
            #8.19 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:50 PM EDT
            determined0a1

            I read some of those swear word vignettes re: McCain and I think it made me like him more.....and that's saying something given I'm no big huge fan to begin with.

            May I join your cruise for a very short vacation?

            • 4 votes
            #8.20 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:47 PM EDT
            Brian Ford

            Ah, well, some of our most famous members of the "so long as *someone* said it about Obama, it's worth repeating five or six times" club are here, so I thought a little uncontested hearsay might be fair game.

            • 4 votes
            #8.21 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:04 PM EDT
            Mars313

            So, yes, Mars, you are wrong because rather than dealing with facts you are simply reflecting a personal prejudice associated with ageism.

            Ummmm, I never said McCain was senile.

            Saying someone is inexperienced is quite different from saying they are senile.

            If you are saying that an inexperienced person is inexperienced, then that is stating fact. If you say a senile person is senile, that is stating fact.

            Now, you say that calling someone inexperienced is different from calling someone senile. If both people are neither senile or inexperienced, then it is the same thing, false statements. If one is senile, and one s inexperienced, then saying so would be exactly the same thing, a statement of fact.

            Now, You saying I am wrong about that and me saying that you are being a whiny little kid are two different things. I am stating opinion and you are uninformed.

            Obama is inexperienced, you are right, he has never been president before. Neither has McCain, so he is inexperienced too. Both have never ran anything but their mouths. McCain is old, Obama is not, is that ageism? Only in the same way that saying "Obama is half-black and McCain is not" is racist.

            Find something worth a @!$%# to bitch and whine about. Don't pull for the old guy and then get mad that people notice he is old. Boo @!$%#ing hoo.

            • 4 votes
            #8.22 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 9:21 AM EDT
            determined0a1

            I would like to be a fly to listen what Hill is saying to Bill only about Obama. He ripped her dreams but.....if Obama loses the elections he will be done forever, Dems don't give second chances.

            • 3 votes
            #8.23 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 9:44 AM EDT
            lisaed

            Determined ---do you think that Bill will jump in line (now that they've actually spoken) behind obama to repair his broken legacy?

            • 3 votes
            #8.24 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 11:34 AM EDT
            ShaunV

            -do you think that Bill will jump in line (now that they've actually spoken) behind obama to repair his broken legacy?

            My guess, Lisaed, is that Bill will jump in line, in response to the Dems commands for him and Hillary to support Obama, only up until the time the campaign bill is paid.

            Once that huge campaign check clears, Bill will jump off the bandwagon.

            • 4 votes
            #8.25 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:35 PM EDT
            Bill Harrison

            The media's making a big deal out of this Shaun but the fact is that unless Obama puts Hillary on the ticket with him (which sure as hell isn't going to happen now) the help the Clintons could bring to him is going to be marginal anyway.

            • 3 votes
            #8.26 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:43 PM EDT
            lisaed

            Bill--is it your assessment that Obama will "wait and see" for as LONG AS POSSIBLE how the polls go without her on the ticket before selecting a VEEP? That's the way it's looking to me......

            • 4 votes
            #8.27 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:58 PM EDT
            Bill Harrison

            Gosh Lisa, I have no idea but I think it's nearly a certainty that he won't put her on the ticket with him. If you look at today's composite polling average he hasn't gotten any bump from the "Unity" love-in last week. My guess is that the only way she gets on the ticket is if he craters later this summer and it looks like a "Hail Mary" is the only thing that's gonna save him and the odds of that happening are approximately the same as my becoming a Democrat again.

            • 5 votes
            #8.28 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:22 PM EDT
            lisaed

            Bill--thanks for that poll.....I guess those pesky Clinton supporters haven't all jumped in line as yet.

            • 5 votes
            #8.29 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:46 PM EDT
            ShaunV

            Thanks shaun. Sometimes I just don't know how to handle that deep bitterness and hostility in people.

            You're welcome, Samantha.

            There are a handful of people at Newsvine who like to proclaim themselves open-minded liberals, when in reality they are narrow-minded, and often totally close minded to other opinions that threaten their viewpoints and take them out of their comfort zone.

            They are closet authoritarians who favor social control characterized by strict obedience and often attempt to maintain control by trying to employ juvenile oppressive measures, while vigorously proclaiming liberalism. The irony is hilarious to behold.

            You will figure out who they are. When I do, I ignore them. :)

            • 3 votes
            #8.30 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:22 AM EDT
            determined0a1

            Determined ---do you think that Bill will jump in line (now that they've actually spoken) behind obama to repair his broken legacy

            ?

            Lisa, knowing the bad temper of Bill I don't know if Obama wants him shutting up or "endorsing" him.

            I rather Bill's silence if I am Obama.

            • 3 votes
            #8.31 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:08 PM EDT
            determined0a1

            Question:

            Which high position in the Cabinet of Obama does not require the confirmation of the Congress? This position is for Hillary, of course.

            • 3 votes
            #8.32 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:41 PM EDT
            Samantha Gluck

            They are closet authoritarians who favor social control characterized by strict obedience and often attempt to maintain control by trying to employ juvenile oppressive measures, while vigorously proclaiming liberalism. The irony is hilarious to behold.

            shaun: The above quote finally put into words what I could not for the longest time. I have many liberal friends, some of them very respectful and open-minded (these are also the ones who are there for me in a pinch and don't ask questions regarding my situations) and I have others who have nice qualities in areas far removed from politics or social issues yet are incredibly closed minded. I avoid any conversation even remotely around politics to avoid a public melt down by these guys and gals. I could never quite come up with a definition for their behavior in this regard. Thanks!

            • 1 vote
            #8.33 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 9:16 PM EDT
            Brian Ford

            I tried to post this earlier, but, network issues prevented it, and then I forgot:

            There are a handful of people at Newsvine who like to proclaim themselves open-minded liberals, when in reality they are narrow-minded, and often totally close minded to other opinions that threaten their viewpoints and take them out of their comfort zone.

            As this has gone unmentioned, that handful is matched by a handful of "open-minded" conservatives, who exhibit the exact same behavior, with just as much absurdity.

            Frankly, I like to know where I stand, and I'll take that (from either side) over some of the covert "I say I'm this, but really I'm pretending to be that so that I can make it seem more poignant when I bash someone of my "own party" even though it couldn't be more obvious that everything I say about myself is fabricated" additions to Newsvine and I'm not sure what's worse -- that they do it, or that some other people -- who love nothing more than to "high five" negativity wherever it pops up -- perpetuate it.

            • 3 votes
            #8.34 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 11:19 PM EDT
            Reply
            batteredknight

            Unfortuntately for many of us, however, we don't like sailing into unknown waters with a chart resembling a tabula rasa.

            Blank page it may be I'd rather head into the future with a chart yet unwritten and perhaps discover new waters than to head out with a chart that we know is faulty.

            I have alot of respect for Senator McCain and his war record. I do not have a lot of respect for the way he treats those that he percieves are beneath him, and those who he disagree's with.

            Our president needs to be a leader, and someone who can inspire not only this nation, but inspire our allies as well.

            • 2 votes
            #9 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:50 PM EDT
            Bill Harrison

            Barack Obama inspires many things in me, but several of them cannot be described without violating the Code of Honor.

            • 8 votes
            #9.1 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:22 PM EDT
            batteredknight

            Pity.

              #9.2 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:31 PM EDT
              Samantha Gluck

              Barack Obama inspires many things in me, but several of them cannot be described without violating the Code of Honor.

              Hilarious!

              Batteredknight: lighten up. The above sarcastic comment is just that, light sarcasm. It is not cutting or abrasive to anyone personally, especially since it is vague. Smile and laugh!

              • 5 votes
              #9.3 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:28 PM EDT
              Mars313

              Barack Obama inspires many things in me, but several of them cannot be described without violating the Code of Honor.

              Are they same tingly feelings you get when somebody says "Reagan"?

              • 2 votes
              #9.4 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:31 PM EDT
              Dr Danny

              Are they same tingly feelings you get when somebody says "Reagan"?

              It might be the same tingly feeling Chris Matthews gets up his leg when he hears Obama speak.

              • 6 votes
              #9.5 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:45 PM EDT
              Samantha Gluck

              I have alot of respect for Senator McCain and his war record. I do not have a lot of respect for the way he treats those that he percieves are beneath him, and those who he disagree's with.

              Batteredknight: Many of us have flaws and I know I should pay closer attention to mine, but I don't agree that he has the behavior you have perceived. Doesn't mean I'm right, just that I see it differently. While I'd love a charismatic, handsome, unbelievably educated, strong president who always treated those who deserved it with respect, that went out when Dutch died. If the man can fix even some of the most trying problems, even if other more palatable ones get worse, he is the one I want.

              While McCain is by no stretch my first choice as a president, I would never vote for Obama after hearing how he wants to rape the rich of their money in what seems to me an attempt to ingratiate the 'little people' to him. Its the rich who own the company that gives me a job. I may not see a massive personal income tax increase, but the owners of my company will. The next time I ask for a raise based upon my stellar performance, they may not be able to afford it.

              • 4 votes
              #9.6 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:13 PM EDT
              Samantha Gluck

              It might be the same tingly feeling Chris Matthews gets up his leg when he hears Obama speak.

              DrDanny: I think the Reagan tingly feelings are more correct in this case. I know that the mention of his name evokes emotion, thankfulness, and warm thoughts in me. ...and when my eleven year old does an entire research project on him and proclaims him his hero, I am so proud the tingly feelings don't even matter.

              • 4 votes
              #9.7 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:15 PM EDT
              TheJonesGirl

              I know that the mention of his name evokes emotion, thankfulness, and warm thoughts in me. ...and when my eleven year old does an entire research project on him and proclaims him his hero, I am so proud the tingly feelings don't even matter.

              Pride in one of the most corrupt Presidents ever being your 11 year old's hero?

                #9.8 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:48 PM EDT
                Samantha Gluck

                Yes ma'am. Although I do take issue with that 'corrupt' thing you said. My 11 year old is an amazing human. I am certain his name will ring somehow in the annals of history. I don't know how, but this kid is a freak of sorts. He is so deep for his age and even if you don't appreciate his choice of heroes, at least respect it. That is what humanity is all about.

                Thanks for your comment.

                • 4 votes
                #9.9 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:38 PM EDT
                lisaed

                It might be the same tingly feeling Chris Matthews gets up his leg when he hears Obama speak

                Dr. Danny---uh oh---not mentioning any names but be careful who you mention that in front of.....

                • 5 votes
                #9.10 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:38 PM EDT
                TheJonesGirl

                Although I do take issue with that 'corrupt' thing you said

                Yeah, Iran Contra was roses and innocence.

                I guess I just wouldn't be proud of anyone taking a corrupt person as a hero.

                • 1 vote
                #9.11 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:42 PM EDT
                Samantha Gluck

                OK, Jonesgirl -- guess you are not ready for a 'mixed' Newsvine friendship yet. That's o.k. Have fun and keep smiling! Thanks for your opinion.

                • 4 votes
                #9.12 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:50 PM EDT
                TheJonesGirl

                Who's talking about friendships, Sammie? Nice way to deflect the point, I understand, no Republicans are willing to admit to Reagan's many flaws. He's almost messianic to them.

                Did you tell your kid the truth about Reagan or just the edited Republican praise of him?

                • 2 votes
                #9.13 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:26 PM EDT
                determined0a1

                I guess I just wouldn't be proud of anyone taking a corrupt person as a hero

                .

                Here you go again.

                • 4 votes
                #9.14 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:52 PM EDT
                ShaunV

                OK, Jonesgirl -- guess you are not ready for a 'mixed' Newsvine friendship yet. That's o.k. Have fun and keep smiling! Thanks for your opinion.

                Samantha:

                There are a handful of people here who can never respectfully disagree with others, and will misconstrue and report even a friendly comment as a flame because it reflect a different opinion.

                It's impossible to have an intelligent conversation with them because they take issue with every word you utter, rather than focusing on the issues of the article,

                Such people are best ignored.

                • 4 votes
                #9.15 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 8:57 AM EDT
                TheJonesGirl

                Ahem..I'm on issue, Sammie's the one going on about friendship.

                But thanks det and Shaun for proving that Reagan isn't allowed to be criticized.

                • 3 votes
                #9.16 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 10:37 AM EDT
                ShaunV

                He is so deep for his age and even if you don't appreciate his choice of heroes, at least respect it. That is what humanity is all about.

                Good point, Samantha.

                • 3 votes
                #9.17 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 11:00 AM EDT
                TheJonesGirl

                at least respect it.

                The way that y'all respect Obama supporters?

                • 1 vote
                #9.18 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:36 PM EDT
                ShaunV

                It might be the same tingly feeling Chris Matthews gets up his leg when he hears Obama speak.

                Dr. Danny:

                Or the tingly feeling the "Obama girl" in the obama girl video is obviously conveying.

                • 3 votes
                #9.19 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:42 PM EDT
                Samantha Gluck

                Thanks shaun. Sometimes I just don't know how to handle that deep bitterness and hostility in people.

                • 3 votes
                #9.20 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:54 PM EDT
                TheJonesGirl

                If you are an honest person, Sammie, you will notice that you (not me) are the one who raised not being able to have a friend in the opposite camp after I criticized Reagan. Not that I ever expect Bush supporters to be honest or take any responsibility for their own actions and words.

                But enjoy your little fits of self-righteousness with your like-minded buddies.

                • 3 votes
                #9.21 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 7:28 PM EDT
                Dan Hallo, aka, ZoilusRestored

                I have lots of Republican friends, and conservative ones. I would never leave my kids alone with a Neo-con. Or even let one in my house. They are insane. These are the guys who will be the first ones to sign up for Gestapo school if they make a comeback.

                • 4 votes
                #9.22 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 7:38 PM EDT
                Samantha Gluck

                Hey there Dan! An innocent question from me to you. What is your perception (as a liberal or democrat) of a neo-con? I mean the definition as opposed to a regular conservative. Please try to tell me in an objective way and then you can skip a couple of lines and add your own 'flavor'. I have simply never heard the actual difference laid out in a rational, objective way. Because of this, I just lump us all together.

                • 3 votes
                #9.23 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 7:43 PM EDT
                TheJonesGirl

                An innocent question

                No such thing, from a Bush supporting neocon.

                • 1 vote
                #9.24 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 7:48 PM EDT
                Bill Harrison

                Samantha

                Better yet, why don't you ask Hallo to string together a bunch of Jefferson quotes taken completely out of context of Jefferson's overall political philosophy of decentralized, weak government to make an argument for the modern liberal nannystate? I've been consistently entertained by this nonsense since I came to Newsvine.

                • 5 votes
                #9.25 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 10:15 PM EDT
                Mars313

                and when my eleven year old does an entire research project on him and proclaims him his hero, I am so proud the tingly feelings don't even matter.

                get 'em young.

                • 1 vote
                #9.26 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 7:43 AM EDT
                Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

                Hey there Dan! An innocent question from me to you.

                As innocent as the question "do you spit or swallow?" you mean.

                The agenda of the Neo-cons is the merger of corporate and government power. As opposed to neoconservatives relate to an approach to politics, literary criticism, theology, history, or any other branch of thought, that represents a return to a modified form of a traditional viewpoint, in contrast to more radical or liberal schools of thought. Or Conservatives like William F. Buckley, Who said, The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry.William F. Buckley Neo-cons would consider that as being to far to the left.
                When Neo-cons see basic American progressive Liberals and call it Marxism, this undermines the principles of America

                . "Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement, and success have no meaning. ~ Benjamin Franklin 1786

                "As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."George Washington, 1789

                "The advance of liberalism... [encourages] the hope that the human mind will some day get back to the freedom it enjoyed two thousand years ago." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1821.

                Neo-cons would label these statements by our Founding fathers as Marxist ones. And even attempt to discredit them, this undermines the foundations of America. Note the dat of these quotes Marx wasn't born until 1818. And as for the Argument that the word Liberial, and Liberialism, didn't meant he same thing then as the y do now, get a Noah Webster dictionary of those days and look it up. The Orwellian redifining of the word "Liberial" by the far right into meaning Socialism or Marxism is working, Thats why the word "Progressive" has been adopted.But the damage to the founders and what they stood for has been done. Education is needed to correct this. But Neo-cons continue to promote the lies. And as they get more defensive, they become more anti-American. They have lost all traces of credibility. The Current state of affairs proves their political ideology is false. yet the still push it, trying to push the blame on anything and anyone else. The American people are tired of it, don't want to here it anymore and the media reflects this. The Neo-cons call it censorship by a Liberal Media, Media Bias. But they just react to the ratings. Freedom of speech also means freedom to not listen to the BS. One of the fallacies of democracy is that everyone's opinion is worth the same.

                • 3 votes
                #9.27 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:49 AM EDT
                ShaunV
                Thanks shaun. Sometimes I just don't know how to handle that deep bitterness and hostility in people.

                You're welcome, Samantha.

                I erroneously posted my response in the thread above...Post #8.30.

                • 3 votes
                #9.28 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:28 AM EDT
                Bill Harrison

                Dan Hallo

                Neo-cons would label these statements by our Founding fathers as Marxist ones. And even attempt to discredit them, this undermines the foundations of America. Note the dat of these quotes Marx wasn't born until 1818. And as for the Argument that the word Liberial, and Liberialism, didn't meant he same thing then as the y do now, get a Noah Webster dictionary of those days and look it up. The Orwellian redifining of the word "Liberial" by the far right into meaning Socialism or Marxism is working,

                Dan, I know it's a challenge to prove who's the most clueless when it comes to the term "neconservatism" vis-a-vis Newsvine where the ignorance grows in proportion to the site's age but you're plumbing new depths here.

                In point of fact almost all of the original neocons were former Democrats of liberal social views and many of the older ones, Irving Kristol, Daniel Bell, and Norman Podhoretz, were former Trotskyites. Bell wrote one of the great critiques of modern unfettered capitalism in his seminal The Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism and Kristol followed up with his Two Cheers For Capitalism. I highly recommend that you read them some time so you don't continue to embarrass yourself.

                • 5 votes
                #9.29 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 3:56 PM EDT
                determined0a1

                But thanks det and Shaun for proving that Reagan isn't allowed to be criticized

                .

                TJG. Respectfully will not take your bait for a deletion. Twice was enough experience.

                Have a wonderful night.

                • 2 votes
                #9.30 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:43 PM EDT
                TheJonesGirl

                It's no bait, it's an observation.

                  #9.31 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:55 PM EDT
                  Samantha Gluck

                  I've been consistently entertained by this nonsense since I came to Newsvine.

                  Bill: LMAO!

                  Its ALL cleared up for me now. I'm learning.

                  • 3 votes
                  #9.32 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 9:19 PM EDT
                  Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

                  Regardless of what my Bio says. I am a beta member of Newsvine.

                  In point of fact almost all of the original neocons....

                  ...are long dead. Leon Trotsky, who you seem to admire so, of Trotskyites fame, was a communist. His real name was Lev Davidovich Bronshtein. He helped to organize the October Revolution with Lenin and built up the Red Army. Was expelled from the party by Stalin in 1927, exiled in 1929. He settled in Mexico in 1937, where he was later murdered by a Stalinist assassin. Not anyone I would consider very admirable. Probably not mentioned in his book though. People with personnel bias, usually leave out these little points about themselves when writing books, when they expect to sell them.

                  Lieberman called himself a Democrat as well. He is not, and never was. The Democratic party started out as the "Democratic Republican Party", the name it has now was kind of a coin flip, and could have gone either way.

                  North Korea calls itself, "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea" (DPRK). It's not a Democracy. Names do not always represent the true political ideology of the ones using it. How quickly labels are changed and adopt totally different meanings overtime as they are influenced by the leadership of that party. New people come and others leave who disagree with the directions being taken, until alas, they are something total different.

                  ...and Kristol followed up with his "Two Cheers For Capitalism".

                  And Benito Mussolini once said; Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power
                  He should know, but of course who would know better, he was the founder. He also had a deep hated of Liberalism, they opposed him venomently, and it turned out they were well justified.Fascism, which was not afraid to call itself reactionary... does not hesitate to call itself illiberal and anti-liberal. You are only as important as your enemies, I forget who first said that, please forgive my slight indiscretion of having the audacity to remember something I've read once, and then blatantly forgetting the source. I read so much...

                  History is Fascinating isn't it. As is etymology.

                  But as for you calling me "Clueless and Ignorant, well... "Ignorance and bigotry, like other insanities, are incapable of self-government." --Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1817. And so I have study History for over forty years, taken more then a few classes at various Universities whenever time permits, it's sort of a Hobby of mine.

                  And as for the term Neo-Con.... remember the aphorism, A Rose by any other name...?

                  • 3 votes
                  #9.33 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:32 PM EDT
                  Adam Hobson

                  Regardless of what my Bio says. I am a beta member of Newsvine.

                  I wonder why your bio disagrees...

                  And Benito Mussolini once said; "Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power "

                  No he didn't.

                  Also, I don't think corporatism means what you think it means.

                  • 2 votes
                  #9.34 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:58 PM EDT
                  Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

                  Regardless of what my Bio says. I am a beta member of Newsvine.

                  I wonder why your bio disagrees..

                  Ooow, someone with the audacity to doubt my veracity, I'm hurt, not physically, but still. Read one of the comments in my column. I was hacked and had to start over. Ask around ask Claus Jacobsen or Calvin Tang, the Founders of Newsvine. Ask Kevin Rose.

                  No he didn't.

                  Nice little link, very extensive collection of quotes, what, 22, in all? You think perhaps he said a few things more then that in the 63 years he lived? I just got 49,100 hits in google, that say different.

                  Also, I don't think...

                  Therefor, you aren't.

                  • 2 votes
                  #9.35 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 11:39 PM EDT
                  Adam Hobson

                  I was hacked and had to start over.

                  Is that what they're calling it now...

                  Nice little link, very extensive collection of quotes, what, 22, in all?

                  Did you care to actually read the article in the link? There is primary source for Mussolini to have ever said that, and in fact the source which is most cited to contain that quote does not contain it its original edition. The quote also goes against the ideas and themes of many other things that Mussolini did in fact say and that we have original sources for.

                  • 2 votes
                  #9.36 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 11:51 PM EDT
                  Reply
                  PrezO

                  Good attempt at puffing up McCain, but unfortunately it fails. It fails because the issue is not simply the age.

                  All the examples in this articles already had had solid leadership experience before they went on to the positions you mention in their advanced age.

                  - Churchill had already been prime minister and had led command of troops in war. And WWII experience.
                  - Charles deGaulle had led command of the French troops in several positions leading up to General. And WWII experience.
                  - Golda Meir had been an Ambassador, Labor Minister and Foreign Minister.
                  - (Other comments have already explained the problems with the examples of Mandela and Adenauer.)

                  What has McCain done except for being a clumsy pilot (crashing his plane at least twice), a POW, and a US Senator? He has never led the command of people/troops (remember, a pilot follows orders, never leads), he has never had any real experience in any real leadership position, at least nowhere even remotely near what the above folks had. If you are hoping the problem of lack of leadership experience gets better with age, you need to remove the rose-colored glasses.

                  • 5 votes
                  Reply#10 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:14 PM EDT
                  Bill Harrison

                  You're quite right. When it comes to command, Sen. McCain cannot hold a candle to Sen. Obama who regularly "commands" several brigades of oft-times slack-jawed idol worshippers at his campaign rallies cum rock concerts.

                  • 9 votes
                  #10.1 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:21 PM EDT
                  tschreck

                  mccain crashed 5 airplanes during his tenure as a "pilot"

                  so it seems that his "experience" is more of a negative. i'd rather have someone of limited experience than someone who has proven incompetence time after time.

                  • 8 votes
                  #10.2 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:28 PM EDT
                  Nathan Johnson

                  Let's not forget the legions of slacktivist bloggers who flood cyberspace with intelligent insights such as "McCain isn't cool enough to be president" and "Obama will bring the hope for change. Changity Hope Change-Change!"

                  • 4 votes
                  #10.3 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:29 PM EDT
                  batteredknight

                  Sen. McCain cannot hold a candle to Sen. Obama who regularly "commands" several brigades of oft-times slack-jawed idol worshippers at his campaign rallies cum rock concerts.

                  Well, I guess I can see where these conversations are going. Pity. I actually liked the fact that you seemed somewhat rational and were presenting some good arguments. At least until this point, and the point above.

                  • 1 vote
                  #10.4 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:30 PM EDT
                  PrezO

                  Bill Harrison in 10.1:

                  You're quite right. When it comes to command, Sen. McCain cannot hold a candle to Sen. Obama who regularly "commands" several brigades of oft-times slack-jawed idol worshippers at his campaign rallies cum rock concerts.

                  Listen pal, stop shifting the goal post.

                  Your article was about why McCain's age should not be a factor in his ability to be a leader. You tried to prove your point by giving us examples from history. I disagreed. Where and when did Obama come into the picture?

                  Let's not digress from the main article, shall we? If you want to talk about Obama, write a different article instead of meaninglessly digressing from this McCain article.

                  • 5 votes
                  #10.5 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:01 PM EDT
                  Mars313

                  mccain crashed 5 airplanes during his tenure as a "pilot"

                  What a war hero!!!! What would America do without him?

                  answer: we'd have saved money on 5 planes.

                  • 7 votes
                  #10.6 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:04 PM EDT
                  Bill Harrison

                  Your article was about why McCain's age should not be a factor in his ability to be a leader. You tried to prove your point by giving us examples from history. I disagreed.

                  My dear you did not make a very convincing case unless you think that service in the United States Congress over long years isn't "leadership". Further, while being held as a POW, John McCain by virtue of his position in life as the son of the admiral commanding the Pacific fleet was in a de facto position of leadership whether he liked it or not and acquitted himself splendidly if one believes the testimony of his cellmate and Medal of Honor winner Col. Bud Day. In fact, if one reads the senator's autobiography and Robert Timberg's excellent The Nightingale's Song, which examines the public and private personas of Jim Webb, Ollie North, McCain, John Poindexer and Bud McFarlane through the prism of Vietnam, you will be left with the impression that if it were not for this auto-da-fe McCain endured he probably would have gone on to an otherwise conventional Navy career.

                  Insofar as command experience in the military is concerned vis-a-vis making a good president, we have the examples of Eisenhower (good) and Grant (a disaster) to look at as well as the continental examples of the aforementioned Hindenburg, Henri Petain the hero of Verdun (who in his dotage was picked to head the Vichy government), and probably the worst of them all Napoleone di Buonaparte. But at least this time out we were spared another run by that pricklish martinet Wesley Clark.

                  • 8 votes
                  #10.7 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:29 PM EDT
                  determined0a1

                  What would America do without him?

                  Well so far little pollution would be appreciated.

                  Is the Jr. Senator ready to give up his smoking habit or our Oval Office is going to smell?

                  • 3 votes
                  #10.8 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:56 PM EDT
                  Spikegary

                  It's against the law to smoke inside government buildings. Guess he'll be arrested if he doesn't head out to the 'Designated Smoking Area'.

                  • 2 votes
                  #10.9 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 3:03 PM EDT
                  Behind My Screen

                  Do you know how many senators and congressmen/women smoke? Cripes, McCain smokes.

                  • 2 votes
                  #10.10 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 4:19 PM EDT
                  determined0a1

                  I would never leave my kids alone with a Neo-con. Or even let one in my house. They are insane. These are the guys who will be the first ones to sign up for Gestapo school if they make a comeback.

                  Then......those aren't your friends.

                  I have rabid Dems friends and I will let any relative w/them.

                  Now, white trash, never.

                  • 2 votes
                  #10.11 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:14 PM EDT
                  determined0a1

                  Do you know how many senators and congressmen/women smoke? Cripes, McCain smokes.

                  This is why we need a good cleaning in our Congressmen/woman and is not for smoking, it's for not doing the job that they were hired to do.

                  • 3 votes
                  #10.12 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:16 PM EDT
                  Reply
                  Adam Hobson

                  Bill, what do you think about McCain making a one-term pledge?

                  • 3 votes
                  Reply#11 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:52 PM EDT
                  Bill Harrison

                  I would be against it since if he did so he would be a lame duck the minute he lifted his hand off the Bible. So long as he remains as healthy and vigorous a man as he his today I would have no probem with his serving out two full terms. And if he shouldn't be up to it, he can ask his mother to take his place (just kidding!).

                  • 9 votes
                  #11.1 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:10 PM EDT
                  camel_prodder

                  A lame duck is better than a dead duck.

                  Anyway, Americans would vote for John McCain only if he promises to serve zero terms. It's his only change. :-)

                  • 3 votes
                  #11.2 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 3:00 PM EDT
                  Reply
                  finalcut

                  While it is true that his mother has lived a long time - I doubt most people who are concerned about his age are are of that - I'm not sure it is a case where people don't trust his brain when they say they have a problem with his age.

                  For instance, I have heard, first hand, quite a few people say they won't vote for him because of his age. Their most oft cited reason? They don't think he will live through the term and that whomever the VP choice is would be the real President.

                  Is there a factual basis for this opinion? No - but, let's be honest, a lot of people don't make political decisions based on facts. Many of these people view his age combined with the toll his time as a POW must have taken on his body, and figure his time is nearly up. None of the people I have spoken with who are concerned about his age are concerned about his mental faculties.

                  Perhaps when he announces a VP choice some of these people will change their minds and be more willing to consider him - but at the moment they don't like the idea of voting for a guy who they think is walking the green mile.

                  A fun article to complement this one might be "Is Obama too inexperienced? Only if you're Historically Illiterate" and then focus on presidents/leaders who had little prior national leadership experience yet excelled in their job. Teddy Roosevelt would be a good starting point - how long was he a VP? Less than half a year if I remember correctly. Here is a list of past Presidents and their "experience" (however you measure that).

                  Personally I am not swayed by McCain's "excess" age or Obama's "limited" experience.

                  • 1 vote
                  Reply#12 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:20 PM EDT
                  Bill Harrison

                  A fun article to complement this one might be "Is Obama too inexperienced? Only if you're Historically Illiterate"

                  I already wrote it. Theodore Roosevelt had been, of course, before he became president not only chairman of the board of the Police Commission of NYC but Assistant Secretary of the Navy, and governor of New York along with his wartime experience in the Spanish-American War.

                  • 6 votes
                  Reply#13 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:44 PM EDT
                  Samantha Gluck

                  Theodore Roosevelt had been, of course, before he became president not only chairman of the board of the Police Commission of NYC but Assistant Secretary of the Navy, and governor of New York along with his wartime experience in the Spanish-American War.

                  You go, Bill H! As my little baby son recently pointed out in his end of the year research, Teddy Roosevelt also said, "Walk softly and carry a big stick". I can't tell you how much I have used this idea in my personal life. It is most important in a president or any leader for that matter.

                  Obama talks loudly and would dismantle our stick.

                  • 4 votes
                  #13.1 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:53 PM EDT
                  finalcut

                  I'm pretty familiar with Teddy's experience

                  Chairman of the Board NYPD: 2 years
                  Spanish Am War: Lt Col/Col May 1898-Aug 1898 : ~1/3 year
                  Gov of NY: 2 years
                  Asst Sec of Navy: ~1 year
                  Vice President: ~1/2 year

                  Prior to this abundance of experience he was a U.S. Civil Service Commissioner for about 7 years.

                  Teddy deserves more credit for what he was able to accomplish considering how little actual experience he had. You do him a disservice as a natural statesmen by trying to inflate his credentials by suggesting he had far more experience via vagueness. Heck, when he took over the Oval Office everyone figured he would shoot himself in the foot by being reckless and inexperienced. I'm not saying Barack = Teddy. What I am saying is "experience" != "success" and "lack of experience" != "failure"

                  I'm just not sure how much any prior experience directly correlates with being President of the US. As the document I seeded points out a ton of experience really isn't the end all be all. Look at Buchanan; exactly what did all of his experience lead to?

                  To me, a lack of "Presidential Experience" is a fairly weak argument against someone; just as someone being "Old" is a weak argument against them. I'd prefer people find flaws with their stated policies than with these red herrings.

                  I don't think your article about Obama-vs-JFK is particularly appropriate to the topic I suggested. Your article speaks directly to JFK. I had hoped you would put that eidetic memory to work and write an article on people who had been successful leaders with limited experience. I guess that was too much to hope for.

                  Being President just isn't a job you can get a bunch of experience at before you are sworn in the first time. Anyone at all who gets elected with have a lot of "on the job training" - however, certain things, such as international diplomacy ( a skill any President should have) can definitely be gained vis-a-vis experience in other jobs (or you could have an uncanny knack for it).

                  Roosevelt (Ted) was a fine example of a President. He had 2 years of being a Gov under his belt and apx 1/2 year as VP. Yet he managed to do a pretty damn fine job when he took over (though, truth be told I'm not a huge fan of all of his efforts to expand the power of the Federal Govt; I'm still thankful for the end result of much of his work).

                  • 2 votes
                  #13.2 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:53 PM EDT
                  Bill Harrison

                  My advice to you is to quit flailing. Theodore Roosevelt, by your own reckoning, had well over one full presidential term's worth of executive experience before becoming vice president. As for Jack Kennedy, we're all quite aware of his naval career part of which consisted of command of a PT boat. He also served in the House and Senate for a combined length of service of 13 years before becoming president. But if you would like to focus on a man of limited experience, who initially made a series of blunders but later recovered to become one of our best presidents there is only one name I'm thinking of ---- Abraham Lincoln.

                  My point in writing this little essay was to show as ridiculous the claim that John McCain is too old to serve as president. Likewise, I believe anyone who would use Barack Obama's mere physical age against him would be equally foolish but if anyone can offer me a resume of a presidential nominee with a thinner resume (seven years as an IL state senator and four more as a US senator) in modern times I'm all ears.

                  • 7 votes
                  #13.3 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:23 PM EDT
                  BlaiseP

                  McCain has zero executive experience. That's not a slur on the man, he's just never administered anything but his own career and his staff, which includes some truly godawful people. McCain's involvement in the Keating Five scandal taught him nothing. He's still riding around in other people's jets, just like he did back then.

                  • 5 votes
                  #13.4 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:38 PM EDT
                  ThreeCents

                  JSM being aged is not an issue for me. Initially I thought this age would be an defining issue but after consideration, his age pales in comparison to other reasons why I don't think he'd be a good president. I am sure he would have been better than Bush though.

                    #13.5 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:48 PM EDT
                    finalcut

                    Facts are flailing eh? That's the first time on the vine I've been told to stop providing facts. Usually it's the other way around.

                    Personally I don't accord governorship, police commissioner, or even being a LT Col as equivalent to Presidential experience. I'm not sure why you do.

                    Teddy Roosevelt knew he was inexperienced, hell everyone in his political day knew he was - why is that hard for you to admit? The thing is his inexperience wasn't a huge weakness.

                    And of course Obama isn't Roosevelt. Nor is McCain de Gaulle (if we are going to admit either of those points then I suppose that makes you're entire article a moot point. I'm sure we could dig up quite a few "old" failures as well to "support" the idea that McCain would be bad because he is old.) That's why I think the argument about age (and experience) is generally worthless when it comes to evaluating Presidential candidates.

                    I'm really not sure why you keep dodging the point - other than it isn't politically expedient for you to be intellectually honest about the topic becuase you obviously prefer McCain to Obama. Since I don't really like either one of them I thought it would be interesting to see an article that at least got rid of both worthless arguments (age and experience) and to see someone beat either of them up on policy and not fluff.

                    btw: I intentionally didn't bring up Lincoln. Roosevelt, whether you choose to admit it or not, was inexperienced - a secondary example really wasn't necessary for me to illustrate my point. Besides which Lincoln had 10 years of combined legislative experience so I figured you would suddenly decide that was Presidential experience as well considering the rather peculiar definition you choose to use.

                    • 4 votes
                    #13.6 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 8:41 AM EDT
                    Bill Harrison

                    Personally I don't accord governorship, police commissioner, or even being a LT Col as equivalent to Presidential experience. I'm not sure why you do.

                    Since the presidency by its very definition is an office that one cannot (or I suppose I should say has not as yet) have any experience in before assuming it, most political commentators generally consider executive experience as a governor to define the ranks of presidential would-bes each cycle. Governors also avoid the tricky problem of a Congressional voting record which may or may not be the reason that in the past century (until this cycle barring tragedy) only two people have been elected to the office from the ranks of the Senate -- Warren Gamaliel Harding and John F. Kennedy.

                    • 6 votes
                    #13.7 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 10:49 AM EDT
                    finalcut

                    I can buy Governorship as valid experience, based on that reasoning, more so than his war experience or his time as Asst Sec of Navy or as Lt Col in the Spanish Am war. However, 2 years still isn't much experience.

                      #13.8 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:03 PM EDT
                      Reply
                      ChrisRonk

                      As far as age is concerned, I'll give McCain a pass. I actually used to like the guy until he voted for the war in Iraq and voted to make water boarding legal.

                      Anyone who voted to send our troops to Iraq based upon information that even I knew was either half-truth or outright lies does not deserve to be in office. That includes Hillary or any other Democrat.

                      He was either ignorant or complicit. Either way he needs to go.

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#14 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:07 PM EDT
                      Jimster

                      To historians, the past must be prologue or they are worthless.

                      You cannot judge whether a person is suitable, vis a vis their age, by comparing them to other leaders from the past. Perhaps those leaders had the genetic fortitude to do what they did, in my opinion McCain does not. As others have said above; he appears to be doddering and unstable. He also appears to be emotionally unstable, definately a disqualifier for POTUS.

                      Why were a small hand picked group of reporters only given mere moments to review his medical records?

                      I wonder. Something is hinkey.

                      Others may have excelled at the age that McCain is now. Good for them. McCain appears lack the vigor and mental acuity necessary for the job.

                      He is unfit for office.

                      • 3 votes
                      Reply#15 - Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:38 PM EDT
                      backroads

                      McCain offered words to ponder with his "oldness" remarks on SNL. Definitely, he's faster on his feet than that Democrat fellow.

                      • 3 votes
                      Reply#16 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 12:06 AM EDT
                      ChrisRonk

                      Oh yeah... that proves it right there. What was I thinking.

                        #16.1 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 12:22 AM EDT
                        ChrisRonk

                        I'm apologize for being dismissive. I'll try again.

                        What is it about being on SNL that makes McCain faster on his feet than Obama?

                        • 2 votes
                        #16.2 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 12:27 AM EDT
                        backroads

                        Actually, McCain's lengthy career proves it. Say, what has Obama done, aside from some speeches? I'm reminded that Obama recently slammed McCain on immigration. I found that funny, as Obama barged up to the mikes when McCain and Kennedy announced that legislation and patted himself on the back when he hadn't done anything on it. Yes, Obama has much to his credit . . . well, he takes credit for much.

                        As for McCain's SNL bit, google and watch it. Then watch him do "Secrets" on Conan's show.

                        • 8 votes
                        #16.3 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 12:29 AM EDT
                        ChrisRonk

                        Actually, McCain's lengthy career proves it.

                        How does this prove that he's quicker on his feet than Obama?

                        Say, what has Obama done, aside from some speeches?

                        Aside from running a stunning campaign against one of the best political machines in history, here is a list of some of the over 800 bills he has sponsored; http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/07/29/us/politics/20070730_OBAMA_GRAPHIC.html

                        I saw the SNL skit. I'm still not sure what that is supposed to prove.

                        • 2 votes
                        #16.4 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:42 AM EDT
                        Bill Harrison

                        Being "quick on one's feet" is probably the least likely predictor of whether a person will be an effective president. JFK was very good at this and still was embarrassed by Kruschev at Vienna. Further, such type of summitry now has taken on less importance as these mistakes impressed upon future presidents the foolishness of not setting the stage beforehand with much advanced work and negotiation. Nixon's famous visit to China was the culmination, not the beginning, of the rapprochement between Washington and Beijing.

                        • 6 votes
                        #16.5 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 8:45 AM EDT
                        Reply
                        Diane B.

                        backroads, you are right McCain, 22 years in the Navy, a war hero, and nearly 30 years as a Senator besides all the trips he has made as a Senator to different countries. I would say he tops Obama in experience .

                        Obama spent several months in the Senate before campaigning for President, and has no military experience. Thats it. I know, I know he was a State Senator, but how does that compare with being a US Senator for only one term. Where as McCain has been a US Senator for almost 30 years.

                        Yes backroads, you are right McCain is definitely more qualified.

                        • 6 votes
                        Reply#17 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 3:17 AM EDT
                        determined0a1

                        From what year Obama taught Law as a full Professor and not an Associate or a lecturer?

                        • 4 votes
                        #17.1 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 9:47 AM EDT
                        finalcut

                        What bearing on anything does Obama's time as a professor have? Does that in some way equate to his having more or less skill/"experience" - I don't understand why you are asking this question determined0a1. What is the point?

                        Who cares if he was a law professor (of any stripe)?

                        • 1 vote
                        #17.2 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 10:23 AM EDT
                        determined0a1

                        Why do you react so negative to my question.,

                        I have the right to know all about the man that could become our President. Day and night, night and day, nothing hidden behind any rock.

                        If he really taught I want to know, if he was a lecturer only, I want to know.

                        Thanks.

                        • 2 votes
                        #17.3 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:20 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        ericslocum

                        I'm absolutely Independent and have not made a choice in this election, but age should NOT be an issue for either candidate. And I would add that a Vice-Presidential pick is of great importance for both men as the person they choose, as is often said, is one heartbeat away from the office.

                        • 2 votes
                        Reply#18 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 4:35 PM EDT
                        Brian Ford

                        And I would add that a Vice-Presidential pick is of great importance for both men as the person they choose, as is often said, is one heartbeat away from the office.

                        Well, then, I would argue that at some point, age IS an issue. If McCain were, say, 89, would age not be a issue?

                        • 2 votes
                        #18.1 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:35 PM EDT
                        ericslocum

                        Well- at some point in the future we may see average lifespans well into the hundreds so I would still say NO. It would depend on the fitness of the candidate.

                        • 2 votes
                        #18.2 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:45 PM EDT
                        Bill Harrison

                        Well, precisely. One of the principal reasons for passage of the 25th amendment to the Constitution was what happened with Woodrow Wilson and later presidents who suffered severe health problems while in office like Ike and Lyndon Johnson. In 1919 following an arduous effort to sell the Congress on the wisdom of the League of Nations Wilson suffered a debilitating stroke that left him nearly completely incapacitated. His condition was kept from VP Marshall and the Congress by his wife Edith and top aide Col. Edward House. Mrs. Wilson and House were in essence co-presidents for the final year or so of Wilson's term. And we won't even get into the health history of Jack Kennedy, which if publicized at the time probably would have kept him from the presidency.

                        • 6 votes
                        #18.3 - Tue Jul 1, 2008 10:27 PM EDT
                        Behind My Screen

                        hardly. Jack Kennedy had back problems and that was the major extent of it.

                        • 3 votes
                        #18.4 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 1:00 AM EDT
                        Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

                        A neo-Con never lets a few basic facts get in-the-way of a good argument.

                        • 2 votes
                        #18.5 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 2:08 AM EDT
                        Adam Hobson

                        A Dan Hallo never lets common courtesy get in the way of some good name calling.

                        Kennedy's health problems extended beyond his back and included Addison's disease, colitis, steroid complications due to colitis treatment, and various other illnesses that caused Kennedy to undergo last rights three times during his life.

                        • 5 votes
                        #18.6 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 3:01 AM EDT
                        ShaunV

                        If McCain were, say, 89, would age not be a issue?

                        Brian:

                        As has been pointed out Jack Kennedy was young and quite ill with Addison's disease.

                        Addison's disease is an endocrine disorder that affects cortisol levels in the body. it is known that both too low, and too high levels adversely impact the brain, and all other organs.

                        In fact, the exogneous (not made in the body) drugs, typically synthetic corticosteroids, and mineralcorticoids, used to treat Addison's, are also known to adversely impact brain functions, even when administered at appropriate levels, over the long haul.

                        Human studies report cognitive impairment consistent with hippocampal dysfunction in depression, bipolar disorder, Cushing's disease, and in those individuals receiving exogenous corticosteroids.

                        http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v21/n4/full/1395378a.html

                        Also life spans are increasing as are health spans.

                        If a person is deemed physically and mentally healthy, on their physical at the time of their campaign, then age should not matter. IMO, Kennedy's illness was more of threat to brain health than McCain's age.

                        Anyone can die in office, people have heart attacks in their 50s, as well as strokes. They can also acquire various debilitating disorders such as cancer and diabetes.

                        • 5 votes
                        #18.7 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:47 AM EDT
                        Behind My Screen

                        Addisons and colitis were treated by the steroids. Frankly, Kennedy was in good health as are most people with diseases that are under active maintinence treatment.
                        Having bouts of bad patches 3 times in your life is not uncommon with people who have colitis but trying to conflait his diseases to be something that would disqualify him from holding office today is silly. Yes, pundants and the Republicans would have tried using it but I don't think it would have made it very far.

                        • 1 vote
                        #18.8 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:48 AM EDT
                        ShaunV

                        Addisons and colitis were treated by the steroids.

                        Yes. 18.8. -- Exactly Addison's is treated with steroids...glucocortocoids such as prednisone, prednisolone, methyl prednisolone, or hydrocortisone as well and mineral corticosteroids like Florinef, to maintain electrolyte balance.

                        Here is an excerpt on how long term use of these drugs adversely impacts neurological function: Note the mention of depression and psychosis.

                        When glucocorticoids are administered for prolonged periods of time in high doses (or endogenously secreted in large amounts), wasting of skeletal muscle occurs (the mechanism of which is unknown). Corticosteroids can also affect the CNS in a number of indirect ways, in particular via glucose homeostasis, maintaining adequate circulation, and electrolyte homeostasis. They may also have direct effects, but these are as yet, poorly defined. An array of reactions, varying in degree and kind, is observed in patients administered glucocorticoids for therapeutic purposes. Most patients respond with an elevated mood, yet others exhibit euphoria, insomnia, restlessness, and increased motor activity. Some patients may become anxious, depressed, or even psychotic. Also, corticosteroids have been shown to affect brain excitability and alter the EEG.

                        http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/121/3/921

                        I would say that the long term ongoing use of such drugs definitely raises questions regarding psychological issues.

                        • 5 votes
                        #18.9 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 11:05 AM EDT
                        Bill Harrison

                        Anyone who thinks Jack Kennedy was in good health is probably near death's door. Many of the reporters who covered Kennedy knew how sick he was (Hugh Sidey of Time and Ben Bradlee in particular) but they liked him and covered for him. Most of the myths surrounding JFK perpetuated by Sorensen and the like were punctured by Richard Reeves in his superb President Kennedy: Profile of Power. As for Kennedy's health, the drug cocktails her relied on were astounding:

                        During the first six months of his presidency, Kennedy's physicians "administered large doses of so many drugs that [Dr. Janet] Travell kept a `Medicine Administration Record'" [6b]. Many of the drugs Kennedy received affect thinking:

                        cortisone [injected] Cortisol has profound psychological effects. At one extreme, "steroid psychosis" can result. At the other, a profound sensation of well-being can occur. In between, the effects are more difficult to characterize.

                        cortisone [oral]

                        lomotil For diarrhea. Contains anti-cholinergic compounds, which, in toxic doses, can make someone "mad as a hatter."

                        paregoric For diarrhea. Contains opium. Mentation is probably unaffected if used in reasonable doses, but Kenndey was taking at least 3 medications for diarrhea, suggesting that doses were high.

                        phenobarbital A classic "downer"

                        testosterone Was Kennedy's "bull-like" libido a side effect of testosterone? Was his cholesterol level of 410?

                        trasentine An anti-diarrhea medication. There is very little published about this drug. Side effects include giddiness and euphoria

                        Tuinal A mixture of secobarbital and amobarbital Kennedy used to help him sleep. Amobarbital is better known as Amytal, one of the more common "truth serum" drugs.

                        amphetamines Post and Robins, writing in 1993, thought it was "highly suggestive" that Kennedy took amphetamines while President, but considered it unproven [16a]. The recent Atlantic article states definitively that Kennedy received injections of amphetamines and painkillers from "Dr. Feelgood," a.k.a. Max Jacobson [6b]. Kennedy dismissed concerns about the injections, saying, "I don't care if it's horse piss. It works." Jacobson's medical license was revoked in 1975. Previously, in 1969, all controlled substances in his possession were confiscated by the Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs [16a]. It is thought that Kennedy was under the influence of amphetamines when he made his "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech [16a].

                        • 5 votes
                        #18.10 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 3:06 PM EDT
                        determined0a1

                        Well, and from where came all the women that signed the Guest book in the White House and was not given to Mrs. Kennedy=Onasis?

                        • 2 votes
                        #18.11 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:25 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        gedanken_1

                        McCain is too old, too doddering, and too confused. His time was eight years ago.

                        For how long will Americans accept Lieberman and Graham on his side constantly whispering, advising and correcting?

                        McCain comes across like an old Soviet leader such as Brezhnev, Andropov, and Chernenko.

                        • 7 votes
                        Reply#19 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 7:52 AM EDT
                        Bill Harrison

                        Thank you for your unfounded opinion.

                        • 4 votes
                        #19.1 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 3:08 PM EDT
                        TheJonesGirl

                        What about it is "unfounded?"

                        Or is it simply because you don't agree?

                        • 2 votes
                        #19.2 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 3:16 PM EDT
                        determined0a1

                        Or is it simply because you don't agree?

                        Whatever, I want Romney for Vice President.

                        Republicans and Independents, Dems for Hillary know what we are getting with McCain. What's very funny is that McCain positioned himself to be a menace for Obama that is kissing the evangelicals and all religions that are in the map of the USA.

                        • 1 vote
                        #19.3 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:29 PM EDT
                        TheJonesGirl

                        What does your reply have to do with anything, det?

                        • 2 votes
                        #19.4 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 7:00 PM EDT
                        Bill Harrison

                        Looked in the mirror recently?

                        • 4 votes
                        #19.5 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:41 PM EDT
                        Samantha Gluck

                        Looked in the mirror recently?

                        Bill: Вы мой герой! Вы!

                        • 3 votes
                        #19.6 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 9:25 PM EDT
                        TheJonesGirl

                        Ah, look, a Republican Viner gang attack. Aren't they cute.

                        Well, if something left in a litterbox is cute, that is.

                        I guess it's easier to ridicule than to be honest and answer questions, right, Bill? You show that with every article you post. Republican dishonesty knows no bounds.

                        • 3 votes
                        #19.7 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 9:40 PM EDT
                        gedanken_1

                        Thank you for your unfounded opinion.

                        • 3 votes
                        #19.8 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 9:41 PM EDT
                        TheJonesGirl

                        gedanken,

                        Fabulous. And to think that bozo is whom some here want to lead this country. Poor misguided souls, hitching their wagons to such ignorance and patheticness. I sometimes wonder if McCain supporters need to be reminded to breathe.

                        • 2 votes
                        #19.9 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 9:51 PM EDT
                        Bill Harrison

                        ROTFLMAO, at both of you.

                        • 4 votes
                        #19.10 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:39 PM EDT
                        TheJonesGirl

                        LOL at anyone who thinks the NY Post is a legitimate source of anything.

                        In

                        Out

                        In

                        Out

                        Just follow that, Bill, and you'll be ok.

                        • 4 votes
                        #19.11 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:40 PM EDT
                        gedanken_1

                        TJG,

                        The New York Post is a cheap subway rag. It's motto is "Stay Stupid Here". :-)


                        John and Cindy McCain campaigning in New Hampshire.

                        ROTFLMAO, indeed!

                        • 4 votes
                        #19.12 - Wed Jul 2, 2008 11:13 PM EDT
                        Bill Harrison

                        I expected you two to try disparage the messenger by citing the medium. Typical and dispositive of nothing except your own expanses of ignorance.

                        • 3 votes
                        #19.13 - Thu Jul 3, 2008 2:09 PM EDT
                        TheJonesGirl

                        Why should I believe anything in that rag? Guess I'm just not as gullible as you, BillyBoy.

                        • 2 votes
                        #19.14 - Thu Jul 3, 2008 5:16 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        ryan-jas

                        Once again a very good article, Bill. If I may make one point, several of Churchill's contemporaries portrayed his behavior in his second term as being troubling and attributed to old age.

                        That being said, however, every individual is different and age is no indication of performance. It shouldn't be viewed as a plus and shouldn't be regarded as a minus. Your excellent historical examples are cases in point. After all, compare Churchill's behavior with Anthony Eden's (younger) manic and strange behavior during his term in office. Churchill wins hands down.

                        My main concern is not with Sen. McCain performance, but with the fact that old age increases the chances one may die in office. Now, of course we won't see any bizarre Soviet-style power struggle for succession, because of the office of the Vice-President, but the selection of the Vice-President has always been troubling for me. I have never understood the logic allowing the Presidential candidate to select the Vice-President on his/her own, especially when VPs are usually picked for very political considerations. We had pretty good luck with Presidential succession thus far, but whenever I think of the President dying in office, a little voice in the back of my head always screams DAN QUAYLE, DAN QUAYLE!

                        • 2 votes
                        Reply#20 - Sun Jul 6, 2008 1:42 AM EDT
                        determined0a1

                        BillyBoy.

                        FYI

                        The correctt name of the poster is Bill Harrison

                        • 3 votes
                        Reply#21 - Sun Jul 6, 2008 9:04 AM EDT
                        gedanken_1

                        Testaruda,

                        Remind me. In the NYTimes forum, wasn't Bill Harrison also known as "Bass-da-Ass"?

                        :-)

                        • 1 vote
                        #21.1 - Sun Jul 6, 2008 9:24 AM EDT
                        determined0a1

                        The NYT forums were s the most shameful and abusive time in a newspaper.

                        • 2 votes
                        #21.2 - Sun Jul 6, 2008 9:58 AM EDT
                        gedanken_1

                        You are right.

                        I always liked you and Bill.

                        • 2 votes
                        #21.3 - Sun Jul 6, 2008 10:25 AM EDT
                        Brian Ford

                        The NYT forums were s the most shameful and abusive time in a newspaper.

                        Someone should write a book. It could start:

                        "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Mainly, though ... it was the worst of times."

                        • 1 vote
                        #21.4 - Sun Jul 6, 2008 12:18 PM EDT
                        Reply
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